Going for the Zhangbuckers

After much discussion with David Plummer (the guy who winds them) and with our own Refin and Kap'n, I'm going to order a set of Zhangbuckers to replace the functional but lackluster hummers in my PRS SE Singlecut. Now that I've played them for a while, I'm finding the import pickups to be a little muddy and not as sensitive as I'd like.

I'm going with a set that Refin uses in his old Les Paul: what David calls a 'Woodbucker' in the neck position, and a 'Slugbucker' in the bridge. The definition I heard in Refin's clips of this setup is off the hook.

I won't have them for 4 to 6 weeks. But once installed, I am expecting to have about $450 invested in a guitar that will tonally disembowel anything Gibson-y on the wall at GC. :dude

You will not be disappointed. David makes great pickups!

I can't wait to hear what you think of them!

I can't wait to get 'em! (But I hafta.)

:bluesbros :appl:

If not already there,add some good CTS pots.

Refin, what I've read online indicates that the CTS pots won't fit unless one is prepared to make the holes in the guitar a little bigger. Totally not up for that... I'd screw up the finish or something for sure.

There were good, normal-sized pots in my SE.

There was also a bright cap, which I removed.

Kap'n, the "bright cap" is to help the guitar retain highs as you turn down the volume, right? Why did you remove yours?

David indicates that the pickups I'm buying are plenty bright on their own....

I do want to change the knobs on the pots. Lisa thinks the amber speed knobs are "ugly."

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Originally Posted by silent j.

Kap'n, the "bright cap" is to help the guitar retain highs as you turn down the volume, right? Why did you remove yours?

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I find that as you turn the volume down, the sound gets unnaturally bright. I'm not a big fan of them on guitars. 50's wiring (tone control connected to wiper) helps make it more natural.

That sounds like the hot set-up. Some stuff I saw online said that Gibson is wiring their guitars this way again.

Jim,I use this awl (?) to make holes bigger for tuners and pots...stick it in from the top of the guitar and go slow,it does the job pretty quick!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...n/Beach043.jpg

'50s wiring--
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../wiring50s.jpg

Kinman treble bleed---this one worked really good for me.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...eblebypass.gif

My Soapy had full sized pots in it. I can't remember if I had to ream the holes larger. The original pots were not that bad. Id install the pickups and move the tone control's lead.

I've tried all of the treble bleed cap circuits that I could find and don't like any of them. They make my fuzz pedal sound funny rather than clean up nice when I turn the guitar down.

Well, my order's in. Here's hoping the wait is 4 weeks instead of 6... I'm stoked.

I hate waiting for stuff!

I replaced import pots with CTS
My guitar came alive and speaks three languages now !
:salud:

Sounds like the consensus is that the pots in the SE's are okay... Which is good 'cause I don't want to go to that much trouble to get the good from the Zhangs... Swap them in and rock is the general idea.

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Originally Posted by silent j.

Sounds like the consensus is that the pots in the SE's are okay... Which is good 'cause I don't want to go to that much trouble to get the good from the Zhangs... Swap them in and rock is the general idea.

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They may be fine.
All I know is that on my Epis,changing the pots and switch made a huge difference.I had already swapped the pups,but it only helped about 25%.
Keep us posted,Jim!! :salud:

Well... Now I'm not sure. I'd be a little nervous reaming out the holes... but I want to get more than 25 percent of the goodness out of them.

On the other hand, I've been really underhelmed by Epiphone import quality, and wouldn't be surprised if the Epi guts were way crummier than the PRS SE line.

Kap'n, what did you do on your Korina?

I kept the original pots and switch. They were fine. I just pulled the bright cap, and did 50's wiring.

There was nothing wrong with the pots in my PRS SE Soapy. I replaced them because I wanted an RS Superpot volume pot because I liked it's taper. I'd do as Kap'n says.

So let it be written, so let it be done.

I noticed something on refin's 50's diagram.... I've seen lots of drawings that show just a wire from the tone pot to the volume wiper, but your diagram shows a little green cap. What's the value of that cap, and which way do you guys prefer to do it?

(I'm not really obsessive... I just have this neurotic thing about nailing things down the first time. When I'm doing a home improvement project, my motto is, "I'm doing every step exactly right because I'm only gonna do this once!")

It doesn't really matter how you do it- that's just the way Gibson did it. If I recall, they did ES guitars differently- I suppose so they could get the electronics back into the guitar.

If your guitar has only 1 volume and 1 tone control you won't want to follow that diagram anyway, just swap the cap's lead to the output and clip the bright cap.

Thanks, Don.

Hey, Kap'n, in your Korina were the routes deep enough to accommodate a standard leg plate? David asked me what size I want, and I was going to open it up but I figured it was easier to just ask you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silent j.

So let it be written, so let it be done.

I noticed something on refin's 50's diagram.... I've seen lots of drawings that show just a wire from the tone pot to the volume wiper, but your diagram shows a little green cap. What's the value of that cap, and which way do you guys prefer to do it?

(I'm not really obsessive... I just have this neurotic thing about nailing things down the first time. When I'm doing a home improvement project, my motto is, "I'm doing every step exactly right because I'm only gonna do this once!")

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The value of the tone cap is really about as subjective as the value of the pot.For years,the standard for a bucker was a 500K with a .047 cap (and 250K/.022 for Fender)---but people have experimented,swapped around,ect.Some swear by 300K pots,some like a different value with a bucker.My '55 has the old bees in it,I'm guessing they must be around .047?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...Stuff/bees.jpg

Thanks for the pic, Refin... You know, I haven't swapped a set of pickups in a guitar in, like, 15 years, so I need all the help I can get! I have screwed around with my Strat wiring, making my own blender pot and wiring that and the clean boost inside. But humbuckers are so new to me, I didn't even know what David meant for sure when he asked what size "leg plates" I wanted! :)

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Originally Posted by silent j.

Thanks, Don.

Hey, Kap'n, in your Korina were the routes deep enough to accommodate a standard leg plate? David asked me what size I want, and I was going to open it up but I figured it was easier to just ask you.

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You're talking about the routs for the "ears" in the pickup cavities? I didn't have to do anything funky. I told David what I wanted, he sent them to me, and I didn't have any issues.

Okay... Good enough for me.

Well, this is going to sound pretty stupid, and I certainly can be, but in the tradition of my love/relationship with gear...

I realized yesterday, after spending a day tracking guitars ( well, okay, four hours) that changing pickups would not actually make the PRS sound any better when I am playing it. In fact, you can barely hear the difference between a Strat and the Singlecut when I'm playing it.

So I've asked David if it's too late to cancel my order. If it is, there wil be a discounted, no-wait set of Refin-style Zhangbuckers on the market shortly. :)

Sorry it didn't work out. With my PRS Narrowfield mini buckers there is a great difference in the way my strats sound compared to them and they are suppose to sound like strats.

Geezer, you may well be a good enough player to hear the subtleties in pickups. I know a lot of good players can. But my limited skills also limit what sounds I can make with a guitar, and in my hammy hands that PRS sounds just like my Strat. :)

Oh you sell yourself short, a little guitar knob experimentation make a big difference on most guitars. And yes I can hear the difference. Thanks J. I respect your talent.

Why not at least try those pickups when they arrive, Jim?

Curtis, I am assuming I can get pretty much what I paid for them if I don't install them.

Jim,

I know your feeling. Sometimes, despite totally different guitars, a given player just sounds like a given player. I've heard good players whose sound definitely sounds different with different guitars and I've heard players that you wouldn't know they changed guitars unless you actually saw the guitars.

Tugboat, I'm the latter... 45 years playing the guitar, and I never got any good. I think it has something to do with me being kind of generally spineless and lazy. :D

I'd sell the damn PRS, too, but my wife would kill me. I bought it kinda by accident, and it's sorta cool, but I really don't need it for anything. Lisa doesn't understand the gear thing: she thinks me buying gear and selling it when I realize I don't need it is a symptom, and for some reason it angers her.

One thing's for sure: hanging out on guitar forums makes me buy stuff I don't want. :D

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Originally Posted by silent j.

Tugboat, I'm the latter... 45 years playing the guitar, and I never got any good. I think it has something to do with me being kind of generally spineless and lazy. :D

I'd sell the damn PRS, too, but my wife would kill me. I bought it kinda by accident, and it's sorta cool, but I really don't need it for anything. Lisa doesn't understand the gear thing: she thinks me buying gear and selling it when I realize I don't need it is a symptom, and for some reason it angers her.

One thing's for sure: hanging out on guitar forums makes me buy stuff I don't want. :D

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I've heard the latter more than the former. I'm talking the difference between a Tele and a Les Paul Special too! Or a 24 fret PRS (bone stock) and a vintage SG Special. Or (way back) when Fezz Parka posted a couple clips of his Norlin LP and his Tele cranked through his Tweed Deluxe. Of course I could also just be tone deaf! :laughing: Or maybe you just notice more when you're the one playing?

I think guitar sounds begin to seriously blur with cranked amps.

Although, let's be real...buying new toys is just too much fun!

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Originally Posted by tugboat

Jim,

I know your feeling. Sometimes, despite totally different guitars, a given player just sounds like a given player...I've heard players that you wouldn't know they changed guitars unless you actually saw the guitars.

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Sadly, listening to my live shows - I don't think I sound that much different either from guitar to guitar - surely, some make me play different, and all of them feel different and respond differently. But overall, there are gross differences but really it's all shades of colour...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silent j.

Tugboat, I'm the latter... 45 years playing the guitar, and I never got any good. I think it has something to do with me being kind of generally spineless and lazy.

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I'm sorry but I'm going to have to call out bullshtick on this one. Jim, you're a great player, and are one of the few on here who can truly say that you make your living with your music!

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Originally Posted by silent j.

One thing's for sure: hanging out on guitar forums makes me buy stuff I don't want. :D

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Oh yeah... or need! :D I want it ALL!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silent j.

Tugboat, I'm the latter... 45 years playing the guitar, and I never got any good. I think it has something to do with me being kind of generally spineless and lazy. :D

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Sounds kinda like me except I have an excuse- I've only been at bit for a little over 30 years :laughing: - I took a break between 9 and 15 years old! I'm a very lazy practicer- I play every day but I seldom practice!

I can't honestly say that I've heard a good recording of my playing but I'd like to think I sound at least a little different on different guitars.

Judging by my more recent choices in guitars- a Carvin DC150 and AE185 and a pink Epiphone Sorrento - guitar forums don't seem to have too much of an affect on my gear buying habits!

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Originally Posted by Don

Sounds kinda like me except I have an excuse- I've only been at bit for a little over 30 years- I took a break between 9 and 15 years old!

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That's when I worked at it hardest, Don! I took my break from 25 to 30 or so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tugboat

Jim,

I know your feeling. Sometimes, despite totally different guitars, a given player just sounds like a given player. I've heard good players whose sound definitely sounds different with different guitars and I've heard players that you wouldn't know they changed guitars unless you actually saw the guitars.

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That's sort of why I cleaned house a while back. Not so much I sound like ME no matter what. There was just a lot of sonic overlap btw what I had (parts-o-Tele, MIK Casino &Schecter Strat). For the most part, I could get the sounds that I'd actually use from any of them.
I sat and plugged 'em in one after another, and came to the conclusion that i didn't need most of them.
The Schecter, I had a sentimental long-term connection with. So it's the only electric i have now.

Having no job afforded me the time to ponder such things. Time and economics were both factors in the process and the decision.

But really, I think I can hear more difference btw my two decent acoustics. The only electric I actually miss having AND playing is my Bluesbird. Played one recently and got strong twinges. :(

I was thinking that I must sound different playing certain guitars because my bandmates definitely have favorites. Then I realized that it might not be the tone of the guitar as much as how it inspires me to play.

If that's the only real difference between all of my guitars then it's worth them all.

Well, perhaps so. But that doesn't justify boo-teek pickups, especially when it's me playing the same guitar. The expense, the time spent installing them, and what do you get? A sound indistinguishable from the sound it made before!

Anyway, array for the inconvenience... sorry I started this thread, actually! Move along, nothing to see here. I'd delete the whole thing if I could... Perhaps a kindly mod will put it out of its misery.

Well, pickups can and do sound different. These differences can be accentuated by style - pick attack, and other personal playing differences.

Anybody with any sense of history knows that many of the greats somehow made due with 'inferior' parts, less desirable pickups, scale lengths, "tone woods" etc. They all ended up sounding like themselves.

The real question is how much equipment do you need/want/willing to deal with to sound like yourself as much as possible? For example, Wes Montgomery would still have sounded like himself on a Telecaster or an L-5. But which instrument would accentuate what Wes wanted to achieve best?

I know that's true, Kap'n. I'm sure you can hear the difference when Refin plays. But when I play... Eh, not so much.

A while back, Refin posted a clip of himself playing his new Stratele winds (I think that's what David calls them), and it was amazing. And I posted in that thread that if I could make those pickups sound like that, I'd buy some!

Jim, I'm just a tinkerer who likes to play with his toys!

To tell you the truth, the biggest differences in the sound of my guitars happens when I purposely try to use the to create their signature sounds.

Usually, I just play and hopefully sound like me!

Don't ever regret starting a thread like this- your one of the guys who makes us think (that's a good thing)!

Jim it is a great topic and has me thinking!

Well, glad to be of service.... even if the whole thing makes me feel like a consarn idjit. (I'm sure you can hear the Yosemite Sam voice, there....)

Well, this thread it got me thinking too, realizing that there are different things you can do with different axes if you play right, and that there are some things that a P90 or Tele just can't do, and my bonus is coming this week, and i deserve a toy to reward me for the crazy yet excellent year last year, all of which caused me to pull the trigger on a PRS Korina SE on e-bay to get the thick, juicy, rockin humbucker sounds.

Only thing, I don't like the all black humbucker pickups so if your Zhangbuckers have covers I might be interested in taking them off of your hands for you. That just might be the worst reason to buy new pickups ever. I want pickup covers. :speechles

Sorry, dude... I ordered them black/black without covers. (I'm on the verge of a local sale, anyway.)

Can't you add covers aftermarket? Are the PRS buckers an odd size?

You should try them,Jim.....I don't think anyone would really give you less if you decide to sell them.

They're already sold, Refin. I think the Singlecut might be right behind them.

Bur seeriously, man, all GAS and myth aside... I've heard dozens of recordings of you playing. It's the notes and the picking and phrasing that makes it. It doesn't matter what guitar or amp you use, it sure doesnt matter what pickups you use, and it matters even less for me. I'm not a guitarist like you. I'm a songwriter and low-level producer, and I learn to play one simple part I need for a recording, play it, and then forget what I did the second I start mixing. I never touch a guitar otherwise anymore.. after 45 years, I can't stand to hear my own playing!

This little on-line tantrum is part of what I think is an important personal process for me: the late-middle age letting go of some old beliefs and illusions. I am letting go of the idea that I can ever be the guitar player I set out to be. I haven't gotten one lick better in the past 20 years, despite instructional videos and lessons. I just don't have the thing, the mental trigger, the key that goes in the lock, to be what I would call "good." I can't reach my own standards. Which is okay... I've done a lot of other good things that I'm proud of. But this one got away from me. It was probably never within my capacity.

So, as you age, it's mentally healthy to let go of those things, so you don't become a crashing bore to your grandchildren. :)

Refin, I'm the lucky dog who got Jim's pickups. The intention is to replace my Jack-of-all-trades prs soapbar SE with two different guitars: my Tele clone that I'm halfway done finishing and a nice thick fat humbucker guitar (a PRS Korina SE I just pulled the trigger on). One guitar for fender sounds, one for Gibsony sounds. I figure having two (theoretical) polar opposites would cover the ground my ham-fisted hands can cover.

Well,hey,I don't think you will be disappointed! :salud:

Hey Jim,we all reach a place where we seriously look at what we do with a little honest judgement.The truth is,you are a much better player than you give yourself credit for.It's good to be our own worst critics,it helps us grow---but you gotta pat yourself on the back once in awhile too!:appl:
Your kindness about my playing is humbling.....it encourages me,but I know how many takes I do to get something right,rather than just jam like most people.The people I so admire can sit there and play 12 bars without a fluff,and I seem to have lost that ability at times.But---it's because I don't practice like I should.Whenever I hear Leslie West,Paul Kossoff,Peter Green,Joe Walsh,those are my teachers as far as feel--get "inside" the note rather than the phrase.The latter will take care of itself!

I'm working on a pitch for a national TV spot: the competition is fierce, I won't likely get it, but I have a shot so I'm going for it anyway. I've got a thing going I really like, and was so feeling a 12-string electric, so I put out a call on my Facebook page for anybody I know locally who has one. Turns out Rob & Susie Suraci, some people I'm (still) trying to get a band put together with, have one they offered and I just picked it up... a Danelectro Hodad in purple metal flake with three lipstick pickups and some kind of Varitone thingie. It needed some strings and some cleaning, but I've got it tuned up and rocking....

Now, THIS sound different! Honestly, this is what I should be spending my guitar money on... REALLY weird crap. I need a junk Asian hollowbody with microphonic pickups and a Dano 12 and homebrew Tele baritone!

And I know you won't believe it, Refin, but on my scale you have equalled or surpassed the players you mention. Joe Walsh isn't fit to carry your gig bag in my universe. :)

12-strings are very cool and different. You probably would get more use out of it than me. I'd probably learn all the songs off of A Quick One, and then set it down for a year.

Kap'n, that's why I'm borrowing this one instead of owning it. :) One thing's for sure, it is stupid ugly.

Update: it's also a really bad guitar. :) What's up with this wiring? Is this a "blow" switch? Why is it so damn loud? Is this tone knob any good at all? Is it going to play out of tune all over the neck?

I think the newer Dano 12s are of a better quality...I tried to like the Hodad...and yes, I think it's a blower switch...

They sound cool but the neck feels like a hunk of spaghetti to me.

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Originally Posted by silent j.

Is this a "blow" switch?

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Is that a description of the sound, or what people were using when they designed it? :wah:




Can autotune fix a 12-string? :bonk

Well, I can't speak to the latter, but clearly the former.

Sorry, it was meant to be a slight to 12-strings in general. You know the joke.