Who is old enough to remember Clapton's tone when he was with Cream?

[Algernon]

I am old enough to remember it. I was about 16 or 17 when Clapton was with Cream. Man I thought that was the tone I wanted. Thinking back, it was pretty good tone. Clear, lots of sustain, and his chops were very articulate letting you hear each and every note. Remember how great his guitar sounds on "I Feel Free"?

Of course back then Hendrix was also part of the mix (and broke a lot of the old stereotypes) as were the Ventures and Beach Boys too. George Harrison was interesting to listen to also with his Gretsch sound.

Of course guys like Kenny Burrell and Wes were around anchoring down the purist sounds.

Over time I guess we've all learned to appreciate many different sounding guitar tones. Jimmy Page was very distinctive sounding too. Mind you this was all way before Eddy Van Halen and all the subsequent shredders burst onto the scene.

Metal was sort of in its infancy back then. Some of the undisputed grandfather's of it all were Beck, Clapton, Hendrix and even Santana.

I've settled down a lot since then and strive for clean mostly, but when I want to play more aggressively and sound more like Santana or the older Clapton, I use an OD pedal and play with a lot more attack. A lot of tone comes from the fingers and playing style itself.

Then I'll go to a Tommy Emmanuel concert and my excitement for music is rekindled all over again. I guess I don't really have a point, just a little nostalgic. I can't help wonder what guitar will evolve into in another 40 years?


www.nickkepics.com

[Old Tele man]

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[Kap'n]

I was 16 in 1980.

I did NOT want to sound like the guy in Loverboy, REO, Journey or Styx.

[Algernon]

I've noticed over the years that guitar players all end up sounding like someone, whether it's deliberate or not. A lot of it is a product of the equipment we have at the time and our chops.

It's not that I really ever chased tone that much to try and sound like someone as ending up sounding like someone in spite of any efforts on my part.

Separating yourself from your own sound and being objective about it is actually quite hard to do. Most of us have a lot of our ego tied up with our tone, crazy as that may sound.

I do all the proper adjusting for pup selection and EQ'ing when playing one tune versus another to get close to what the song is supposed to sound like. That's what you do in a cover band, and eventually you can do it without an attitude adjustment as well.

For some country tunes for example I try and sound as clean and twangy as I can while for other tunes I use an entirley different setting. Goes with the turf. If you play in a working band it becomes physics and science and not so much emotion as when I was young. I still put a lot into the playing but try to not get so judgemental about it anymore.

When I play Margaritiville for instance I can almost get my Strat to sound like steel drums on a good day.

Getting back to Clapton, I liked him when he was with John Mayall and the Bluesbreakers too. I think that's where he cut his teeth that took him all this way.

[NeoFauve]

I was 16 in 1980.

I did NOT want to sound like the guy in Loverboy, REO, Journey or Styx.

Me too. Eh, regarding all the above.

Actually Neal Schon played some tasty stuff and I liked Greg Rollie's voice. Both came from Santana, one of my long time faves,
but then Steve Perry came along and Aaaaaaaahhhh...

[curtisstetka]

EC did his Cream thing before I was more than an itch in my Daddy's crotch.

However, when I first heard Cream when I was about 12 or so that is the moment I decided to play the guitar.

[Kap'n]

Me too. Eh, regarding all the above.

Actually, there's about five seconds of a Journey song I like.

I can't remember what the hell it's called. Probably never listened to it long enough to get to the chorus.

Anyway, towards the beginning of the song, there's a cool building guitar lick that preceeds a line about "cheap perfume."

If I hear the tune on the radio, I'll wait until the end of the lick before I change the channel. I don't do that for any other Journey song.

Regarding Clapton, I like the Beano album, even though I haven't heard it in years. When I was a kid, I liked the Cream stuff. Now it's just so tired sounding. Of course, hearing it ten zillion times hasn't made it sound any fresher.

[fezz parka]

Kap'n that's "Don't Stop Believin'". Schon can play when he wants to.

[Kap'n]

Kap'n that's "Don't Stop Believin'". Schon can play when he wants to.

Thanks, Fez. I know Schon can play, and brilliantly, when he wants to. It's just that I find myself listenting to the whole package - the song and how the parts fit together, rather than flash solos.

Lukather's the exact same way.

Oddly enough, Luke's job was/is to fit in seamlessly with the folks he's working with. Sort of what I try to do.

Uh, oh.

[photoweborama]

I started playing late as far as the influence thing. I started when I was 14 or so, but I spent the first few years just learning. I don't think I started taking note of music in general until I was older in the late 70's.

After hearing the Eagles, that's when I started to take note of what bands were doing at the time. I think now, in my second childhood, that I'm noticing what others are doing. But now my memory is shot, so I don't remember it for very long, and I just keep playing the same old stuff.

[cooltone]

What I really miss is Album liner notes. It's almost like the 12" vinyl record and packaging were part of the 'art'.

I'm the same age as Kap'n. I have an older sister who brought home Lynyrd Skynyrd's first album when I was about 10. I remember sitting there in front of the stereo, listening and reading the liner notes. They told you who wrote each song, who played what solo's and what kind of guitar was being played. I was able to associate the sound of the solo's with that specific type of guitar. For example, Gary Rossington's sweet Les Paul tone on "Tuesday's Gone" or Allen Collin's biting "Free Bird" tone from his Gibson Firebird.
I love that!

[Power_13]

I have memories of watching The Cream's farewell concert from the BBC documentary about them, where each member of the band talks about his gear and sounds.

I've not watched the Jack Bruce bit in ages. I gawp at how great Eric was on guitar, then laugh at how stoned Ginger was. Trust me, he was.

[Cottage]

When I was about 17, my band played warm up for Cream on their last tour through North America. EC had two Marshalls and went straight in through a wah. Played his single pickup Firbird. His tone was superb. I got a picture taken with him and Jack Bruce. Both really nice guys, particularly Jack. I would have asked Ginger but I was frightened of him. He looked at that time like some kind of Biker/Pirate! Too much for a prairie kid to take in!

[pc]

Gee, how old do you have to be to wander to the CD store and buy the first Cream CD?

I went and bought it and the first Mayall/Bluesbreakers CDs about 7 months ago when I started really jonesing for a Les Paul. I remember it like it was yesterday. :hee

[fezz parka]

Who is old enough to remember Rudy Vallee's switch from megaphone to microphone??? Well??? :hee

pc, do you have this?



It's LP heaven...

[pbradt]

I remember that Bluesbreakers tone from high school. Best Clapton tone ever and in fact, the ONLY good Clapton tone ever.

Watch it, you get too close with that thing and I'll fart!

[fezz parka]

"All Your Love" just kills.

[pc]

pc, do you have this?
...
It's LP heaven...

No, but a few months ago I did get "Super Session" with those two--is it the same stuff? It's really great. LP heaven for sure.

[fezz parka]

It's a live record. It's killer. No Stills, but a little guest appearance by Johnny Winter. Bloomfield just slays me on "One Way Out". What a great player.:yay

[pbradt]

I've noticed over the years that guitar players all end up sounding like someone, whether it's deliberate or not. A lot of it is a product of the equipment we have at the time and our chops.

This is my experience only with guitar players who are too lazy or too stupid to find their own sound.

I do all the proper adjusting for pup selection and EQ'ing when playing one tune versus another to get close to what the song is supposed to sound like. That's what you do in a cover band, and eventually you can do it without an attitude adjustment as well.

Speak for yourself. MY cover band does NOT do that.

This is what's wrong with cover bands. They think they have to COPY the fucking songs.

ATTENTION!!! ATTENTION!!!

THERE IS NO LAW THAT SAYS YOU HAVE TO COPY A SONG TO COVER IT!!!!!!!!

GOD FUCKING DAMMIT!

I swear to god, most of the people on this forum are some of the most unimaginative people I've ever encountered in music. There are exceptions. Most know who they are.

"Oh dear, we're covering xxx, I guess I better adjust my pickup height so I can sound like diddle the diddling guitar player."

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH SOUNDING LIKE YOURSELF?

God help me, I am SO glad I'm such a lame guitar player that I couldn't sound like anyone else if my life depended on it.

Don't any of you people realize that if all you do is cop some song, note for note, tone for tone, YOU'RE CHEATING THE FUCKING WORLD OF THE MUSIC THAT'S INSIDE YOU????? Can't any of you understand that? Are you all so tainted by radio and so forth that you don't have an original thought in your heads?

Covering does not mean copying. All the greats have always understood that. Milk Cow blues by Robert Johnson doesn't sound the same when Elvis sang it, or when Lee Roy Parnell sings it or when Asleep At the Wheel does it, it sounds like Elvis, or Lee Roy, or the Wheel.

Clapton and Cream covered "Crossroads." I don't recall Clapton trying to sound like Robert Johnson.

Good lord, my own band Revelators does "Sharp Dressed Man" but you sure as hell wouldn't catch me dead playing it like Top. Who wants to suffer in the comparison? I ain't the Rev, but truth to tell, I think our approach to the song is fresh and different. I like it and I'm proud of it, that some little part of me helped that song take on a different life, if for our audiences only.

Find that voice inside you. It's there and it wants to be heard. As I said, the world is cheated if all you do is copy the work of others.

[pc]

Re Bloomfield/Kooper--Well okay then. Gonna have to check it out. I'll see if Rhapsody has it.

[pc]

I do all the proper adjusting for pup selection and EQ'ing when playing one tune versus another to get close to what the song is supposed to sound like. That's what you do in a cover band, and eventually you can do it without an attitude adjustment as well.

Pete is as subtle as .

However, I have to agree, this paragraph really offends me. Nobody crowds onto the dance floor because the guitarist's tone is spot on for who he/she is copying. It's about the energy and the performance.

Puh-lease.

[fezz parka]

Find that voice inside you. It's there and it wants to be heard. As I said, the world is cheated if all you do is copy the work of others.

Pete is right on about this.:yay

Why it took 14 paragraphs to get to it, well what can I say? That's Pete! :hee

[pc]

Rhapsody had the Kooper/Bloomfield live thing. I'm downloading it now. (I love getting great music legally! :) --$10/month, can't beat it.)

[fezz parka]

You'll dig it, pc.:yay

[pbradt]

Pete is right on about this.:yay

Why it took 14 paragraphs to get to it, well what can I say? That's Pete! :hee

It is my belief that people who are gently challenged pay no attention. Especially on the internet.

But this is a real hot button for me. I am SO SICK of players asking "how can I sound like ___________________________?"

The operative question is, "Why on earth would you want to sound like someone else? Do you suck that much?"

I mean I suck, but no one will accuse me of trying to copy anyone else. Better suck on your own merits than to suck trying to be someone else because you don't suck enough by yourself, no?

[fezz parka]

Pssst. You don't suck.:hee

[Kap'n]

Find that voice inside you. It's there and it wants to be heard. As I said, the world is cheated if all you do is copy the work of others.

Yep. All we do is covers. There are a lot of people who write better tunes than me.

However, they're all my (and my band's) versions. Sometimes the resemble the original, sometimes they don't. Sometimes all that remains of the original is many of the lyrics.

They sound like us.

I think that if people wanted to hear the records, they'd go to a fuckin' disco, or whatever they call 'em these days. Or hear themselves wank to a karaoke machine.

I'll go with the assumption that if people are paying me, they're paying to hear me.

[pbradt]

Pssst. You don't suck.:hee

You didn't see me taking ***50*** takes to get that "country Bumpkin" jam right. Playing that simple and stilll taking ***50*** tries to get it right. Pete-->

[pbradt]

Yep. All we do is covers. There are a lot of people who write better tunes than me.

However, they're all my (and my band's) versions. Sometimes the resemble the original, sometimes they don't. Sometimes all that remains of the original is many of the lyrics.

They sound like us.

I think that if people wanted to hear the records, they'd go to a fuckin' disco, or whatever they call 'em these days. Or hear themselves wank to a karaoke machine.

I'll go with the assumption that if people are paying me, they're paying to hear me.

[fezz parka]

You didn't see me taking ***50*** takes to get that "country Bumpkin" jam right. Playing that simple and stilll taking ***50*** tries to get it right. Pete-->

Start comping takes. :hee

BTW, I'm nicking that gif...

[pbradt]

I do that with others, but usually not with me. On our demo, on "Tulsa Time," the other guitar player played a really cool solo, but he clammed the first part a little bit so I said "Do it again but do it clean." Well he didn't remember what he did and even when I played it back for him, he couldn't quite get the first part right, so I said "Play it as clean as you can." he got the first part right and clammed the second part, but I was able to put the two GOOD parts together and make a good sounding solo of it.

He's never been able to reproduce it. He's never even tried. What's even funnier is that it was his best tone on the demo, and he was playing my Tele through my amp because he'd broken a string on his Strat and didn't want to bother changing the string.

[pbradt]

Start comping takes. :hee

BTW, I'm nicking that gif...

Feel free. I got it from a place that makes this place look like Sunday School and just changed it a bit. I <heart> photoshop.

[shunka]

I'm with PBRADT on this. There are some licks that are essential to a tune and there is the melody and the harmonic structure. Beyond that it's pretty much a free -for-all. Does anyone cover 'Jingle Bells" or "Happy Birthday," just like the original. Yet, the tunes are always recognizable.
One of the most popular local bands does a really hard rocking version of "Sweet Caroline" as their closer.
I can honestly say that I've very seldom learned a complete solo off a recording. Perhaps an opening or closing phrase. That's about it.
O.K. we've deviated from the point of this thread just a bit. I'm 61 so I guess I was late teens/early twenties when I first heard and saw Cream, Hendrix etal. I think "my tone" is the result of all my influences. I might switch pickups or roll off the tone control but seldom touch the amp. I will use effects if that sound is really identified with a certain song.
One thing we overlook is that up until the Beatles ther were very few "rock bands." Most bands that played rock could also do a few standards and the keyboard player ( or somebody) was usually a converted accordian player. At least around here. Nowadays the styles are so compartmentallized that I wonder if the guy covering a Creed tune could handle "MISTY" OR 'Moondance." It's really unfortunate that so many great players have such a limited vision.

[pbradt]

I couldn't agree more.

[pc]

Fezz--that's a great recording. Thanks for the tip. "One Way Out" is great, but "Feelin' Groovy" just blew my shit. There isn't a version of "All Your Love" among the 10 tunes on my download, but there is a smokin' version of "That's All Right Mama." :yay

[sorry for repeated thread hijack.]

[well, actually, no I'm not. :ahem ]

[I really am behind Pete 100% on his points though.]

[Algernon]

Actually I agree. I play in two different scenarios. When I book my own thing as a leader then I sound like whatever I want to sound like and don't really try too hard to sound like anyone. I do try and get the melody right at least once on standards like Autumn Leaves or Misty but as for tone, I get "my" tone and play creatively. If they hired "me" then they want to hear me and that's what they get.

The other scenario I play in however is as a sideman in cover bands. Now since in those situations it is not my band and not my place to radically change common covers that the leader calls, I try to do a decent rendition of what I know he wants. I guess maybe the distinction I make between those two roles, leader and sideman, is too sharply defined.

For artistic, creative, original, imaginative, fresh playing I do that on my nickel. But when I wear the sideman hat and I'm on someone else's nickel, I'm not there to be a player with an attitude problem for the leader. I just play correctly and "fit" with what the leader is establishing for the groove.

I don't have a "regular" band like I guess lots of you guys do. When I get calls as a sideman it's usually because I can read, I show up on time, I act professionally at all times, and can show up cold and do the gig for the sick guitar player or whatever. In those situations I'm not there to change the world musically on that particular night on that particular gig.

Hope that helps. I do think there is a time and place for coloring inside the lines and coloring outside the lines. At my age now I hope I know the difference between the two. I try not to burn bridges when possible, but I always carry a spare gas can in my trunk for those bridges that absolutely never should have been built in the first place.

[pc]

I do try and get the melody right at least once on standards like Autumn Leaves or Misty but as for tone, I get "my" tone and play creatively.

Again I say, "puh-lease."

Which is the right melody for "Autumn Leaves"? Cannonball Adderly? Count Basie? John Coltrane? Miles Davis? Should I go on?

Secondly, your overly pedantic condescension about what it means to be a professional isn't making your initial point any more palatable. I've played as a sideman in several bands, one of which has now hired me fulltime, and never once did they even think of asking me to sound just like Joe Perry, Carlos Santana, or anyone else. No sideman gig I've ever done has ever done that, and I've done a zillion.

Studio dates? Sure. I've occasionally been asked to cop some pretty specific tones in the studio, but as a sideman in live music? Phooey.

[pbradt]

The other scenario I play in however is as a sideman in cover bands. Now since in those situations it is not my band and not my place to radically change common covers that the leader calls, I try to do a decent rendition of what I know he wants. I guess maybe the distinction I make between those two roles, leader and sideman, is too sharply defined.

Does the bandleader specify that you attempt to emulate the tone and timbre of the original? Are they, in fact a "copy" band? I see your point but even as a sideman in a cover band, I've never been ordered to go note for note or tone for tone. As long as I had good tone, no one really noticed.

For artistic, creative, original, imaginative, fresh playing I do that on my nickel. But when I wear the sideman hat and I'm on someone else's nickel, I'm not there to be a player with an attitude problem for the leader. I just play correctly and "fit" with what the leader is establishing for the groove.

Again, I don't dispute your point, given the context you've placed on it,. but it sounds like you could do pretty much what you wanted as long as it fit the groove. I could be wrong.

I don't have a "regular" band like I guess lots of you guys do. When I get calls as a sideman it's usually because I can read, I show up on time, I act professionally at all times, and can show up cold and do the gig for the sick guitar player or whatever. In those situations I'm not there to change the world musically on that particular night on that particular gig.

Hope that helps. I do think there is a time and place for coloring inside the lines and coloring outside the lines. At my age now I hope I know the difference between the two. I try not to burn bridges when possible, but I always carry a spare gas can in my trunk for those bridges that absolutely never should have been built in the first place.

it also depends on another thing: money.

For the right money, I'll do what you do but it's gonna have to be local 153 scale. I understand what you're saying, I just hope on those occasions when you're doing the sideman thing, you're making it worth your while.

[Algernon]

There are two primary cover bands (copy bands? not my term) that use me around here, and both leaders are very anal about straying too far from what "the record is supposed to sound like". So, I learned how to "play well with others" in kindergarten, and so I do. Money? I get about $150/gig with these guys so maybe I'm a cheaper date than some of you other guys, maybe not.

One of the leaders is an ex-military musician (retired lifer no less) and so has this whole military head thing going on about what things are "supposed" to sound like. I choose my battles carefully these days. To me it's not that important or that big of a musical/artistic-values-being-compromised deal to have to play Margartiville so it sounds like Margaritiville. I can so I do, that's what I'm being paid for.

The other guy is very old and very old school and wants everything just so. If we show up at one of his gigs and there is someone there we don't know, we're supposed to act like we all know each other and have been friends a long time. He's very sensitive about that. We (all the sidemen) have a chuckle about it during the breaks, but we still march in step, play the gig, then take the money, call it a night and go home.

As for melodies I see your point. But I guess I approach things like that from the Real Book. If the melody in the Real Book says to play a Bb then I play a Bb, at least on the head and out choruses. In between we stray from the map as far as our respective abilities allow while still sounding musical.