Ultimate tone machine

[ajwain]

Early last year I built my first parts Strat, and lovely she is too. There are pics on here somewhere (I don't make that many postings, so easy to find.)

Now it's time to build one for the specific purpose of getting the best vintage Strat tone I possibly can. I want it to look vintage accurate (for aesthetic reasons and also because I think Leo got it right originally).

I have many guitars, but as a general rule I don't modify them, so I'm still a bit of a rookie. My current shopping list is as follows (remember the emphasis is on tone!):

- Thin skin nitro lightweight alder body
- Warmoth birdseye maple neck with Brazillian rosewood slab board
- Fender Custom Shop '54 pickups (don't want noiseless ones, but am open to suggestions if anyone thinks something else sounds more true vintage.
- vintage tuners
- Trem? Hmmm - advice please...

I want an Olympic white guitar with mint green scratchplate, but other than that I don't really want anything that makes the guitar look aged. I hate the relic concept, so I wouldn't ordinarily choose aged pickups or hardware. Also I'm not massively bothered about supreme playability - I believe a nicely built Strat made which has been lovingly set up and played in always plays well, and my main concern is tone.

Any advice or tips will be gratefully received.

[Offshore Angler]

Building from parts has no guarantees that a great sounding axe will result. You buy the stuff, put it together and hope for the best.

Honestly, if your main concern is "tone" whatever that is, you'll be better served by just going out and trying every Strat you can put your hands on and buying the one that floats your boat. And, you'll save money too.

[Gravity Jim]

Agreed. I don't think there is even a consensus as to what constitutes "vintage Strat tone," let alone what components might produce it.

[ajwain]

Thanks Angler, but I've done that for 25 years and have 6 fantastic genuine Stratocasters. I've always waited until a guitar has begged me to buy it, and have sometimes gone out looking for a decent Tele or a PRS and come back with a Strat. I just love Strats.

I really enjoyed my foray into building from parts last time I did it, and am itching to do it again. I won't trust my own (non-existant) skills to put the parts together, I'll get someone who knows what they're doing.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about a good guitar being much, much more than the sum of it's parts, but I've heard and read so much crap about the woods and the finish making a huge difference, I want to satisfy my own curiosity and to put these myths to bed to my satisfaction.

I don't know how I'll save money by buying an original, because other than vintage instruments or C/Shop masterbuilts and special orders, I don't think I'll find a Strat with a Brazillian rosewood board.

I think even with Abigail Ybarra pickups, I can do this for considerably less than a grand.

[ajwain]

Thanks guys - I love to chat like this.

I agree with you on the 'tone' concept, and to be quite honest, I'm very very satisfied with the 'tone' of the Strats I have (and yes, they're all different)!

The drive for this project comes from my trying to understand what effect the different parts have on the sound, and dispelling some of the myths which surround guitar culture. I'm sick of hearing that nitro finishes (automatically) sound better, and so does Braz rosewood. I don't think they do, and am keen to find out.

[Offshore Angler]

The easiest and most foolproof method of achieving a great vintage tone is to take any decent Stratocaster, and plug into a sweet vintage amp. YMMV, of course.

[NeoFauve]

I agree with you wholeheartedly about a good guitar being much, much more than the sum of it's parts...

I kind of think they are the sum of their parts.
The point is that, unless you have unlimited funds, or send a lot of parts back to Warmoth or whoever, OR luck out the first time around, you only get one shot at each part.

You can spec your project just right. But you still have to hope the UPS truck brings stuff that works well together.

Fender has piles of each part, and they vary too.
That's part of why people pay extra for some selected Fender employee to select what they feel are the best examples of each to build a CS or Masterbuilt.

Mystique aside, the goal is to duplicate a 40-50 year old mass-produced guitar that was assembled by a bunch of people who weren't even close to being "luthiers," like Abigail.
So the order-parts/hope-for-the-best is probably the more authentic or vintage-correct approach.

Good luck.

[ajwain]

That's a very interesting view Neo, thanks for that. I never considered that the 'Masterbuilt' benefit was to select parts which go well together...

CS Masterbuilt guitars are usually built to someone's specific order, and I haven't found one yet that I'd be prepared to pay the money for. I guess the same is true of ordering from the Custom Shop - kind of sold unseen, and I don't know whether I'm brave enough. If I went shopping with that kind of money, I'm sure I could find something already built that I'd be happier to part with the cash for - maybe a refinished vintage guitar?!

I'm delighted with my first 'kit of parts' guitar, and definitely want to do it again. Maybe I was just lucky before, but I need to satisfy my curiosity.

This time I just want to buy the best parts I can, to see if spending more and taking more care in the choosing can actually reap a benefit.

Any recommendations as to parts or suppliers would be very helpful.

[NeoFauve]

Folks rave about Callahams Strat tremolo blocks.

I have a Callaham Tele bridge that's non-vintage, but real nice indeed.

I'd recommend Warmoth for a neck in a heart beat.

You might do well getting a painted body from them too.
They tend to cost less than pretty grained bodies for see-thru finishes.
It's easy to shop by weight with them.
I'm not sure they spray nitro though.

I know there's sort of a research angle to what you're doing, but I think the thin-skin nitro thing is largely hocus pocus.
A good light poly finish will last, look great and not smother your tone.

[Offshore Angler]

By the time my guitar is through my chain, out my amp, into the mike and out the mains, anybody who can tell the difference between poly and nitro will most likely also tell me they saw Elvis at the Quicky Mart on the way over.

[Gravity Jim]

A Callaham carved steel trem block was the finishing touch on my weirdo superstrat. It's awesome, improved the guitar in ways I couldn't have expected (not just the killer bell-like string tone).

Speaking of my guitar, I don't know if I was just lucky or if you really can get a collection of components that fit your concept of an ultimate Strat and expect it to work. Mine was spec'd based on my impressions of thousands of guitars I've played over 35+ years, and it came together like a monster.

It's not anything even close to anyone's concept of a vintage Strat, but it is a "tone machine."

And I gotta go with Neo and others on the whole nitro thing. Yes, I know, I superstitiously finished my semi-hollow Strat in oil and beeswax, just in case it might affect the tone. But I'll bet it didn't. I mostly did it because it was easy and would make the guitar look like a real old piece of wood.

My Warmoth neck is the best I ever played, although some credit goes to the work-of-art bone nut a local guitar tech cut for it.

[ajwain]

Neo, thanks a lot for those tips. I've never used Warmoth necks before, but they seem to get a good press. The ones I'm looking at are just upwards of $300. Have you (or anyone else) any idea what I'd actually be paying landed duty and VAT included?

I already have a nitro body in the pipeline, but I wanted to get my whole idea together and then buy most of the bits at the same time. I do agree about the hocus-pocus. I think there's loads of that surrounding guitars - I could recount loads of examples of personal experiences I've had (and the guitars I own) which in my opinion disprove many of the generally held myths on the subject, but there are still niggling doubts that I'd like to put to bed. I don't have a single Strat with the 'perfect' specification, so I'd like to build one.

I've heard about Callaham trem blocks as well - might have to get one of those too.

Any further pearls of wisdom would be received with gratitude.

[ajwain]

Just seen your reply too, Jim. Thanks - it seems we all agree mainly - but you can understand my mission, can't you?

[Gravity Jim]

Well, to be honest... no, I can't.

I understand building a guitar to your specs - neck shape and radius, materials, pickups, etc. - because you've come to like all these things and want an instrument that really suits you.

But trying some kind of scientific experiment to see if all this "vintage" talk means anything? Well, it won't prove anything to build one guitar to '56 spec and see if it "sounds" like a '56. I don't imagine that any two '56 Strats sound or play any more alike than any two modern guitars.

I honestly don't see what is to be gained, especially for the expense.

[ajwain]

Well Jim, thanks for your honesty. I can see your point - I spend a lot of time trying out guitars, and even identical specs can sound quite different. The exception I've found to this rule is PRS - their consistency is staggering, although I do find their instruments to be a little lacking in character.

I don't really have the money to throw around just to prove a point, but I can at least spread the cost a bit - it will be a fascinating project, and I think I'll learn a lot in the process.

I appreciate your viewpoint, and you're probably right after all. We'll see what the total cost is going to be before I commit.

[NeoFauve]

Mine was a little over $300 with shipping.
Vintage Amber tint, straight grain maple, rosewood board, non-standard radius, boat-neck profile, SS vintage size frets, truss adjustment at the nut...

Mine got a little pricey with non-std tweaks.
Yours', probably due to choice of wood.

They do a nice job though.

[Offshore Angler]

ajwain,
It's a tossup. As much as I hate rolling my own guitars anymore, there is still that thrill of being there for it's creation. That makes a guitar truly unique. There is some sort of coolness to playing one you conceived and built. I understand that part completely.

But as to the consistency, heck, I've built 'em out of hand made single piece bodies etc, and the best one I ever built was the one that I threw together from all the left-over parts. It's probably not worth a hundred bucks on eBay but I've been gigging it over all the others. It was built from the "substandard" parts of other guitars! So, at that point I just accepted the fact that I'd rather buy them built and know exactly what I had.

So, if you want a guitar that has all the pieces just the way you like, great, build one. If you want a Strat that sounds and plays great go find one and buy it. But getting both in one shot is pretty iffy in my experience.

[ajwain]

Thanks Offshore.

My first (and only) project was from cheap(ish) bits which I found on various websites. The lovely neck which I found was the catalyst, and I just sourced other parts as cheaply as I could. I didn't really think I'd end up with anything decent. As it happens, just like you, it's one of my main gigging instruments, and I also have a cavalier attitude to getting it knocked or even stolen. I can experiment with different string gauges and truss rod adjustments without worrying that I'm going to lose an expensive instrument with a perfect setup.

I'm not expecting this to be my best Strat, even though it might end up having the best spec. If in the future I want to try new tuners, or different pickups, then I can freely do so, knowing that I'm not going to be devaluing an original instrument.

Humour me on this one, and I'll let you all know how it turns out. If I end up with a dog, then at least I'll have tried, and I can experiment further as funds become available and time goes on. If I don't do it, then I'll be curious for ever more.

[NeoFauve]

OA's right, a big part is just in giving it a shot.
You either wind up hooked, or you get it out of your system.

Consider yourself humored.

[ajwain]

I do really appreciate these comments guys. I know I proabably sound stubborn, but I do have to get it out of my system.

I really love interesting chats like this, and people on here really do seem to know what they're talking about, and they have experiences and examples to back it up.

In short, my current Strats range from a Custom Shop vintage player strat to a sunburst original one I bought new in 1978!! My favourite by a long distance is a Japanese 60's re-issue, which I've played so much, I've had to have the frets stoned twice! It's light as a feather, sounds lovely and hollow and 'funky' and is just gorgeous. It's probably made of really cheap components, but they just gel superbly. Your points exactly, gentlemen, I think!

I'm not doing this because I need another Strat... I need one like a hole in the head (my wife thinks)...but I'm doing it cos I've always wondered 'what if...?', and I also got many delightful hours from choosing, buying and building my other one.

I feel very 'humored' and privileged to have discussed it with you guys.

Thanks again.

[lure555]

It sounds like your dead-set on building this guitar, and there's certainly nothing wrong with it, especially since you already know that this is going to be a pricey venture. Generally, it only "makes sense" to build a guitar if you can't find a production model equipped with the features and/or functions you want.
For the end result you're looking for, you might be best served by just saving the money and waiting for the guitar that "begs you to buy it." It does sound like you enjoy the process of putting things together, so have fun!

[Offshore Angler]

Ah, just do what Fender does with the good USA stuff. Use quality parts, put it together right, and it will sound great. Go for it.

[NeoFauve]

It's pretty easy to get uhh... humored around here, in several ways.

[ajwain]

Thanks for your input lure.

Back to my original question, I've had the warmoth neck reccommended, and the Callaham trem block, does anyone have any tips on pickups, or indeed a vintage style trem? The only vintage trems I can find from Fender are listed as 'chrome'. I know this is fine, but didn't the originals come with nickel?

[Gravity Jim]

You can buy a whole trem unit from Callaham. Pricey, but real, real nice. I've also seen on these forums that Wilkinson makes a superior vintage-style trem.

[Don]

I bought the whole trem from Callaham. It only cost a little more than a Fender unit.

They boast a few other nice features besides than the steel block.

The screws are all nice and tight and supposedly the correct hardness and all but the coolest thing is Callaham's virtual pop-in tremolo arm.

They put a Delrin (plastic) bushing in the trem arm hole and it interfers slightly with the trem arm so that it doesn't wiggle around

It feels awesome and you can't hear the difference or see it from the outside.

I think, that for a vintage style Strat, there is no other choice besides the Callaham tremolo.

Oh, and for a vintage style neck, I'd choose USACG. They're headstock isn't Fender shaped, it's their own and looks great with their logo on it. Even if I was building a vintage correct (looking and sounding) Strat clone, I'd prefer a slightly flatter fretboard radius, neck thickness and the back profile of my choice, all of which are available from USACG and not from Warmouth.

For pickups, I like Fralin. They may or may not be the best. I bought my first set 8 or 9 years ago, liked them a lot better than what Fender had to offer and stuck with them.

[ajwain]

Thanks Don. I've found a supplier for the Callaham trem unit here in the UK.

[Tonedog]

(snip)
I have many guitars, but as a general rule I don't modify them, so I'm still a bit of a rookie. My current shopping list is as follows (remember the emphasis is on tone!):

- Thin skin nitro lightweight alder body
- Warmoth birdseye maple neck with Brazillian rosewood slab board
- Fender Custom Shop '54 pickups (don't want noiseless ones, but am open to suggestions if anyone thinks something else sounds more true vintage.
- vintage tuners
- Trem? Hmmm - advice please...

I want an Olympic white guitar with mint green scratchplate, but other than that I don't really want anything that makes the guitar look aged.

You have a good start for what you want... It's very close to a 62ish type strat. Here are my comments.

On the body and paint. Good call. I like the really thin finishes too. Just be aware that the thin finish guitars can wear quicker, and may not have that deep gloss finish that looks like it's 12 feet deep.

On the neck, a straight grain (either quarter sawn or flat sawn) is usually more stable than birdseye, and costs less. I usually use plain necks, as most of the old Fenders I've seen have had relatively plain necks. Don't get the Warmoth construction... get their vintage construction with the old style single action truss rod. The double action truss rod is really heavey and may influence the tone more. Also, pick a vintage type neck contour, like a V, a chunky C or Boat neck. In the comparisons I've made, I feel that haveing more mass under the strings (from a thicker neck) will provide a fuller more complex tone. Use a bone nut. I like unbleached cow bone. Allparts or StewMac has it.

I really like the Custom Shop Fat 50's pickups. They are a little more like some of the stronger vintage pickups. The 54's are cool too, but I think the Fat 50's are my favorites. Use 250k ohm pots and get a decent paper & oil cap for the tone cap (that's the old school way)

Vintage style tuners are the right way to go.

Trem. I just use a Fender vintage style. You may want to put a callaham or pigtail steel block under it.

You're heading the right direction, keep us posted!!

Greg

[Tonedog]

I bought the whole trem from Callaham. It only cost a little more than a Fender unit.

They boast a few other nice features besides than the steel block.

The screws are all nice and tight and supposedly the correct hardness and all but the coolest thing is Callaham's virtual pop-in tremolo arm.

They put a Delrin (plastic) bushing in the trem arm hole and it interfers slightly with the trem arm so that it doesn't wiggle around

It feels awesome and you can't hear the difference or see it from the outside.

I think, that for a vintage style Strat, there is no other choice besides the Callaham tremolo.

Oh, and for a vintage style neck, I'd choose USACG. They're headstock isn't Fender shaped, it's their own and looks great with their logo on it. Even if I was building a vintage correct (looking and sounding) Strat clone, I'd prefer a slightly flatter fretboard radius, neck thickness and the back profile of my choice, all of which are available from USACG and not from Warmouth.

For pickups, I like Fralin. They may or may not be the best. I bought my first set 8 or 9 years ago, liked them a lot better than what Fender had to offer and stuck with them.

+1 on USACG I really like their stuff!!

Allparts necks work well too, and they're pretty darn affordable.

There are a lot of good pickup choices. Fralin makes my favorite humbuckers, hands down. I like his strat and Tele pickups too.

[Tonedog]

Thanks for your input lure.

Back to my original question, I've had the warmoth neck reccommended, and the Callaham trem block, does anyone have any tips on pickups, or indeed a vintage style trem? The only vintage trems I can find from Fender are listed as 'chrome'. I know this is fine, but didn't the originals come with nickel?

I believe the saddles are nickel plated, but the baseplate is chrome. As far as I know, this is correct.

[ajwain]

Great, Tonedog, thanks.

[hudpucker]

A Callaham carved steel trem block was the finishing touch on my weirdo superstrat. It's awesome, improved the guitar in ways I couldn't have expected (not just the killer bell-like string tone).

What kind of block did the Callaham replace?

[Gravity Jim]

An MIJ (Gotoh) zinc block. Not only did it radically improve the "bell" quality of the string tone, but the added mass actually stopped that bending problem with the floating trem... it stays in tune through a bend almost as well as a hardtail, but is still easy to operate the trem. In a word... awesome. Best bucks I put in this guitar, for sure.

[jerryjg]

The Callaham block is probably great for studio, but its not my cup o tea for a '54 sound.I like that loose thread vintage sound, and the delrin bushings quash that. . You can get a aftermarket steel block for about 55.00 plus shipping. I just got this block for my '54 project.http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=120073882487 . I bought a Warmoth Strat neck and No-Name 1 piece Alder body finished in a tobacco burst. The pickups will be Vintage style low output staggered. I am not expecting it to sound like a real '54. I know its an approximation. Just like any hombrew guitar.If I was to get Duncan coolrails , A graphite neck and a solid brass block ( my next project), it would still sound like a Starocaster, just less "vintage".Have fun. make guitars. Or buy them. Whatever sinks your sub.

[ajwain]

Has anyone ever specified a Warmoth neck from scratch and arranged to have it shipped to the UK? Can someone give me an idea of costs and lead times etc.

Thanks.

[hudpucker]

Hmmm....the positive Callaham reviews make me almost wish I had kept one of my AmStds or strat pluses as a guinea pig.

[NeoFauve]

Has anyone ever specified a Warmoth neck from scratch and arranged to have it shipped to the UK? Can someone give me an idea of costs and lead times etc.

Thanks.

I'd bet that they can.
Shoot them an e-mail.