Quartersawn neck's affect on tone

[69strat]

I've had a few all maple necks am beginning to notice a certain tone it has in all these strats. It sounds scooped in the mids to me compared to a flatsawn maple neck. Anyone else hear it like that?

Sounds more percussive and tight, which makes sense, since the wood is supposed to be stronger. I've played quite a few EJ's and always hear a very scooped tone, those guitars always sound thin to me, sorry EJ guys.

Recently bought a CS relic strat and it sounds really full and aggressive, but not a ton of mids either, what probably gives it the full sound is the ash body, ton of low end out of this strat. This guitar doesn't seem as scooped as the EJ's, which is weird since mine has an ash body as well. But there is less mids and I do notice it's more percussive compared to the normal sound of most strats. Also strings seem more "steely" and powerful. I called Fender and found out that this paticular strat is 1/4 sawn too. So what I'm hearing is real.

This neck doesn't really have the digital grain look of the EJ's I've seen. Anyone have pics of some 1/4 sawn necks?

[Camoradi]

I think you need to talk 'batteries' with EJ, you'd get along with him.

[boobtube21]

Heh, heh.

I wouldn't even worry about it dude.

Sure, it's natural to wonder about these things, but if you get carried away analyzing sound to this degree you're likely to end up as cooked as this guy:

[69strat]

lol. But it's not worrying, it's just cool to know for the next guitar. I like knowing what I like/or don't and what combinations work.


Camoradi, It's a pretty obvious sound difference. Not splitting hairs. Once I stuck an EJ neck on another guitar and instantly heard that neck's affect on the tone. I also built a USACG strat and had an all maple 1/4 sawn neck on it. Very similar. It has a clear, percussive quality which is not subtle. Wondered if others noticed this.

[demioblue]

I have a rift sawn AVRI that's for some reason more trebly and brighter than the other AVRI's I've come across. I have no clue why... The only difference I've noticed is the neck cut.

[Camoradi]

Wondered if others noticed this

.

Well I hope you didn't mind the joshing.

I don't doubt some aspects of a guitar can 'travel' when they are fitted from one body to another, like the different sound a neck produces. Heck, the obvious case is the difference between a rosewood and a maple board when swapped around. So why not a quartersawn neck?

My scepticism a) would expect it to me a minimal difference at best (EQ'able in a normal amp/pedal rig), and b) is it the 'same' big difference in tone that any new widget gives, brought about by a fresh setup and new set of strings? If it was possible to factor out the later scenario I'd be much less sceptical and grumpy about most common 'upgrades' and improvements. I've tried EJ Strats in shops, in the constant quest to try and work out what it is people see in them. And to be honest I've never thought to myself either 'I've got to get a quartersawn neck' or 'I've got to avoid quartersawn necks'. Its the conglomeration of parts, to my mind, that gives the fundamental tone of any guitar.

[69strat]

Well with quartersawn, it's not just the EQ but the feel and response. Notes are super fast and articulate. Ultra spanky. You can't really dial that in with EQ. It's way more noticeable than rosewood vs. maple neck swap IME.

And when I do experiments like that, or pickup swaps, I always use the same strings. I also make sure I play it for awhile before so I get that sound in my head and then do the swap. Sometimes I'll record it too.

I know that any body you stick the EJ neck on, it ends up sounding like an EJ to a great extent. Very tight, articulate and spank city. Notes take on this "hi-fi" thing.

Every EJ I played has that hifi thing and I believe it's the 1/4 sawn neck.

[jamisonst]

I checked into 1/4 sawn at one point. Many say they are more stable and less affected by humidity, etc. They are stiffer and less likely to warp.

However, the guys I talked to and reviews I read say they did not like the 1/4 sawn necks for several reasons: tone, resonance, sustain, and just all out vibe was not there.

Very subjective and personal preference.

[NTBluesGuitar]

Splitting hairs, no?

[Kap'n]

[Sage]

There is a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between flat-sawn and quarter-sawn wood. It's not that one sounds better than the other, per se, but that quarter-sawn produces a more consistent product than flat-sawn.

Draw a circle on a piece of paper. Then divide that circle up into "planks" by drawing horizontal lines, evenly spaced. What you'll end up with is a diagram of a flat-sawn log, hence the name.

Now draw another circle. This time, draw a horizontal line through the center. Then draw a vertical line through the center, so that it looks like a cross, or plus sign, inside a circle. This is how quarter-sawn wood is initially cut.

After the log is divided into quarters like this, the quarters are cut evenly into planks from the inside out. If the mill is doing their job correctly, they're also turning the quarter after every cut. The result is that every plank should have the same grain pattern, as the grain runs lengthwise down the plank. This consistency comes at a higher price -- it takes more work to cut the log this way, and it results in more wasted wood, because eventually the quarter gets too small to cut into planks and has to be thrown away. But the result is that every plank is consistent.

But here's the rub: take a look at that first circle you drew to represent the flat-sawn log. The planks in the center of that log are every bit as good as the quarter-sawn. The point of using a quarter-sawn plank is to produce a neck in which the grain follows the fretboard length-wise. This is desirable for two principal reasons:

1. Vibration does not have to cross the grain in order transfer to the body. Theoretically, this means the neck and body have a better connection to transmit vibration back and forth.

2. The grain acts like a support beam along the length of the neck, keeping it more stable. That means better protection against warping, and less truss rod adjustment when the weather changes.

But as I mentioned, you can get this result from the center planks of a flat-sawn log. Trouble is, it's a crapshoot -- there's no way to know what the grain will be like unless you pick out the piece of wood yourself. If you can hand-select your wood, you can get a good piece of flat-sawn on the cheap. Otherwise, quarter-sawn logs will give you a more consistent result. Flat-sawn varies widely.

P.S. - Flamed maple is almost always flat-sawn, as a flamed grain is pretty much the opposite of a quarter-sawn grain, being perpendicular to the neck's length instead of parallel.

[69strat]

Excellent info Sage. That was a great read. I see the straight grain running along the length of my neck. I believe you're very much right in the transfer of vibration too. The neck and body vibrate a great deal on this guitar. It's amazing how much energy is goin' on. Even transfers it's way through the trem arm when I hold it as a string is ringing. The whole guitar sort've rumbles. It's cool, but the tone is very percussive and rigid all the time. I wish sometimes it could soften a bit.

If you guys played the EJ's, you'd know what I'm talking about. This ain't splittin' hairs. The EJ's have a very unique "acoustic hi-fi" thing and I believe this is why. It's a bit too much for me. I don't like too much hi-fi type tones.

[jamisonst]

Yeah, my comments referenced real experiences and there is a tonal difference. I've also talked with Tommy at USACG about this on a couple of occasions. I would stick with flat sawn.

[NTBluesGuitar]

This ain't splittin' hairs. The EJ's have a very unique "acoustic hi-fi" thing and I believe this is why. It's a bit too much for me. I don't like too much hi-fi type tones.

I'm not disagreeing that quarter-sawn necks are more consistent planks of wood than flat-sawn. I'm sure that's an accurate statement, and I'm sure there is some impact on timbre.

However, there are more effective factors involved than just one part of wood when it comes to changes in sound. The most important of which are hands. Next, maybe, pickups/amp/pedal combos.

By the time you get all that settled, you could start looking at higher quality components like bridge, body, and neck, but it's at that point, you'd be 'splitting hairs' when it comes to impact on timbre...again, IMO.

I don't believe that the tools make the artist. I can do a hell of a lot more artistically with chunks of charcoal on grocery bag paper than I can with a Wacom digital tablet on an 8-Core Mac Pro with Photoshop CS3. Yes, it's all in my hands.

Not a personal attack, but that's the general feeling I get from these sorts of discussions and the responses.

But damned if I didn't think the Hair Bear/Phil Spector resemblance was funnier than a three dollar bill.

[69strat]

Well that can be true for some, but OTOH, I find the more you play and realize the sounds you can make, the pickier you become with obtaining specific things. Also your ear becomes fine tuned and notices a lot more tonal variations. In my experience anyhow.

Look how anal most pros are about every little thing in their gear path. Every single thing matters a great deal. The player, the pick, the strings etc.. But as for the guitar I find the neck makes or breaks it as far as tone. More than pickups. I've done a lot of playing and experimenting with this stuff.

[stratcat55]

Eric Johnson's an incredible guitarist, but IMHO he's got a bad case of OCD. He even jeopardized his career over it. I doubt if anyone in the audience could tell if he had the "wrong" battery or if his stomp box is sitting on a piece of wood instead of his pedalboard. I don't think a quatersawn neck has that much of an effect on tone. There are too many other factors involved. I think even even a decent cord would have a bigger impact.

[pickaguitar]

I'm with you 69strat! Everything plays a role and everything can matter. The cuts of wood...the materials...the sizes...the weights...etc.

That's why I bought an EJ. Very high-fi IMO. To each his own...

Jason

[JAM]

Eric Johnson's an incredible guitarist, but IMHO he's got a bad case of OCD. He even jeopardized his career over it. I doubt if anyone in the audience could tell if he had the "wrong" battery or if his stomp box is sitting on a piece of wood instead of his pedalboard. I don't think a quatersawn neck has that much of an effect on tone. There are too many other factors involved. I think even even a decent cord would have a bigger impact.

Yeah, I agree. You can agonize over this stuff until it gets absolutely ridiculous. It's got nothing to do with making music. I cant imagine someone in the audience saying "Man, what a great solo, too bad he didn't play on a Strat with a quartersawn neck"

[Plugger]

This thread just goes to show that the "maple vs rosewood" argument never really dies, but rather, like a Hindu deity, simply takes on another aspect.

Some aspects are friendly, some angry, and some, like this one, terrifyingly boring.

-Mark

[NTBluesGuitar]

This thread just goes to show that the "maple vs rosewood" argument never really dies, but rather, like a Hindu deity, simply takes on another aspect.

Let's not forget the Poly vs. Nitro argument.

[Quixotic]

Hello All!

I'm new to the board and I have no true first-hand experience with quatersawn necks, but I read something on the Musikraft website that seemed on-point:

"As you can see from the picture, the grain lines on the flat sawn neck are running left to right and the grain lines on the quarter sawn neck are running up and down.
Quarter sawn and flat sawn woods are cut with a different grain orientation and come from different areas of the tree. This greatly affects the internal strength of both and subsequently, the quarter sawn neck tends to be a tighter grain and alot stronger and more stable than the flat sawn. The quartersawn wood is usually very straight and rigid and the flat sawn is much more pliable. There are advantages to both types of woods.
Due to its strength and stability, the quartersawn is a great wood for use with heavier string gauges, unfinished necks, necks with a stronger dual acting truss rod, and longer necks like bass necks etc. There is also a difference in tone on these woods. The quarter sawn has a distinctly brighter tone due to its density.
The Flat sawn neck tends to have a more mellow tone and is more pliable so it is better for use with vintage style, single acting truss rods and does very well with a hard finish but can also be left unfinshed as well.
Asthetically speaking, the wood grain is much more visible on a flat sawn neck as opposed to a quartersawn neck. Flamey and Birdseye necks are most often flat sawn. In the picture below, the flat sawn neck is the one on the top and the quarter sawn neck is the one on the bottom. As you can see, the grain in the flat sawn neck is much more visible and the grain in the quartersawn neck appears as dots that almost look digital." http://musikraft.3dcartstores.com/Qu..._c_14-1-1.html

[rudutch]

old growth or new growth wood?

[Sage]

there are more effective factors involved than just one part of wood when it comes to changes in sound.

Absolutely. Even leaving out the effect of the guitar being played by human hands through various amps, the guitar's intrinsic tone is going to be absolutely dominated by the electronics. After all, a pickup is not a microphone. It's a magnet that senses string vibration. It should be obvious that 90% of what you hear is the pickups at work. And even in that remaining 10%, the bridge hardware and body woods are likely to make a bigger impact on tone than the neck. So we truly are splitting hairs.

That said, I buy quarter-sawn necks because I <em>like</em> splitting hairs. It's my perogative as a guitarist and it's my money. I can obsess over that miniscule change all I want. The <em>real</em> question is, at what point are your ears fooling you? Not having listened to a quarter-sawn neck next to a flat-sawn neck in an A-B comparison, I couldn't tell you, and even if I had, the truth is that when you get to this point you're probably just hearing things. The sad fact is that your ears aren't as good as you think they are. Mine sure as hell aren't.

What I can tell you is that the point is moot because the stability <em>is</em> quantifiable. I almost never have to readjust my truss rod. And if the tone benefits as well, that's just icing on the cake.

[Sage]

Welcome to the boards, Quixotic. Awesome handle, senor. ;)

That Musikraft page was one of my own sources of information, and they spell it out pretty well. But they're oversimplifying a little bit, and some of it is misleading...

As you can see from the picture, the grain lines on the flat sawn neck are running left to right and the grain lines on the quarter sawn neck are running up and down.

True in that example, but they're oversimplifying it a bit. A flat-sawn neck could feasibly look just like the quarter-sawn neck. The grain could be oriented any which way, who knows? But the quarter-sawn neck will always look like it does in that example, with only a minor variance in grain direction.

Of course, it's possible that a sawmill or guitar builder could just pick up a piece of flat-sawn wood that comes from the center of the log and say that it's quarter-sawn. It wouldn't be technically correct, but it'd be practically the same thing. I wouldn't be surprised to hear this is common practice.

Due to its strength and stability, the quartersawn is a great wood for use with heavier string gauges, unfinished necks, necks with a stronger dual acting truss rod, and longer necks like bass necks etc.

True, except for the part about the dual-acting truss rod, which is a stablizer itself, so it doesn't matter what neck you put it into. In fact, a flat-sawn neck is more likely to need a dual-acting truss rod. It would make more sense to say that quarter-sawn is a better choice for single-acting vintage style truss rods, because it is already pretty stable on its own.

There is also a difference in tone on these woods. The quarter sawn has a distinctly brighter tone due to its density.

This is just flat-out false. The way the wood is cut has <em>nothing</em> to do with density. Quarter-sawn or flat-sawn, the density is the same.

People who hear the difference between quarter-sawn and flat-sawn necks do say that the quarter-sawn sounds brighter, but this is likely due to the grain's sympathetic orientation to the strings and the neck's natural resistance to tension. Or even more likely, their ears are just playing tricks on them.

[69strat]

Eric Johnson's an incredible guitarist, but IMHO he's got a bad case of OCD. He even jeopardized his career over it. I doubt if anyone in the audience could tell if he had the "wrong" battery or if his stomp box is sitting on a piece of wood instead of his pedalboard. I don't think a quatersawn neck has that much of an effect on tone. There are too many other factors involved. I think even even a decent cord would have a bigger impact.

I agree. But that OCD is what makes his playing special too. His chops are so polished.

Of course the people in the audience most likely wouldn't hear it or care. But I believe you have to satisfy your own thirst before the audience's. Have you ever played through a cheap Gorilla amp or a tone your not happy with? Not very inspiring.

1/4 sawn makes quite a bit of difference. Fender CS builders seem to think so.

Plus the way the string responds with that extra snap and percussiveness is pretty noticeable. So it's not just the sound but the feel and response that you get with this type of cut.

[69strat]

Welcome to the boards, Quixotic. Awesome handle, senor. ;)

People who hear the difference between quarter-sawn and flat-sawn necks do say that the quarter-sawn sounds brighter, but this is likely due to the grain's sympathetic orientation to the strings and the neck's natural resistance to tension. Or even more likely, their ears are just playing tricks on them.

Right now in my possession are two 1/4 sawn all maple CS strats. they both have that tight percussiveness in the tone that reminds me so much of my old USACG neck which was 1/4 sawn. Also reminds me of my EJ's.

When I got these latest strats. I didn't know they were 1/4 sawn. They weren't advertised as such. As soon as I played them and heard that sound and it reminded me of the guitars that I knew were 1/4 sawn. I did some research and low and behold they were 1/4 sawn. I don't think my ears were playing tricks on me. It's a pretty different sound.

[bluesjuke]

Eric Johnson's an incredible guitarist, but IMHO he's got a bad case of OCD. He even jeopardized his career over it. I doubt if anyone in the audience could tell if he had the "wrong" battery or if his stomp box is sitting on a piece of wood instead of his pedalboard. I don't think a quatersawn neck has that much of an effect on tone. There are too many other factors involved. I think even even a decent cord would have a bigger impact.

I agree also but it is his stuff so just like us he has the final say so.

[bluesjuke]

NTBlues,
What's up with the green Texas flag?

[NTBluesGuitar]

NTBlues,
What's up with the green Texas flag?

Glory to the green!

[melody]

Its all in the hat & boot's ya'all..

[demioblue]

There is a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between flat-sawn and quarter-sawn wood. It's not that one sounds better than the other, per se, but that quarter-sawn produces a more consistent product than flat-sawn.

Draw a circle on a piece of paper. Then divide that circle up into "planks" by drawing horizontal lines, evenly spaced. What you'll end up with is a diagram of a flat-sawn log, hence the name.

Now draw another circle. This time, draw a horizontal line through the center. Then draw a vertical line through the center, so that it looks like a cross, or plus sign, inside a circle. This is how quarter-sawn wood is initially cut.

After the log is divided into quarters like this, the quarters are cut evenly into planks from the inside out. If the mill is doing their job correctly, they're also turning the quarter after every cut. The result is that every plank should have the same grain pattern, as the grain runs lengthwise down the plank. This consistency comes at a higher price -- it takes more work to cut the log this way, and it results in more wasted wood, because eventually the quarter gets too small to cut into planks and has to be thrown away. But the result is that every plank is consistent.

But here's the rub: take a look at that first circle you drew to represent the flat-sawn log. The planks in the center of that log are every bit as good as the quarter-sawn. The point of using a quarter-sawn plank is to produce a neck in which the grain follows the fretboard length-wise. This is desirable for two principal reasons:

1. Vibration does not have to cross the grain in order transfer to the body. Theoretically, this means the neck and body have a better connection to transmit vibration back and forth.

2. The grain acts like a support beam along the length of the neck, keeping it more stable. That means better protection against warping, and less truss rod adjustment when the weather changes.

But as I mentioned, you can get this result from the center planks of a flat-sawn log. Trouble is, it's a crapshoot -- there's no way to know what the grain will be like unless you pick out the piece of wood yourself. If you can hand-select your wood, you can get a good piece of flat-sawn on the cheap. Otherwise, quarter-sawn logs will give you a more consistent result. Flat-sawn varies widely.

P.S. - Flamed maple is almost always flat-sawn, as a flamed grain is pretty much the opposite of a quarter-sawn grain, being perpendicular to the neck's length instead of parallel.

Great read man... thanks for the info... learned a lot from here...

[demioblue]

Let's not forget the Poly vs. Nitro argument.

Here's what really confuses me:

Maple = Bright?
Rosewood = Warm?
Nitro = Bright?
Poly = Warm?

Then why does my:


sound warmer than my:


and this:

sounds warmer than both of them. (I'm talking acoustic terms here... unplugged)

Never figured it out... but they all sound great...