Strat set-up -- what am I missing?

[Offshore Angler]

My illustration of a neck with too much relief can't be fixed by shimming, it clearly shows why notes will be choked off.

Oh, and Deadwood, Most modern strats (Since about 1977) ARE out of phase in 2 and 4 because they changed to RWRP on the middle pickup. Even most of the reissues are wired that way, too.

Well, you could shim it but the action might be too high. Think about it. It's actually an extreme case of my preferred setup.

[Wilko]

Yeah, the language is tough.


WIth a big hunk of relief, and higher "action" you can play the string real loud and they'll have plenty of room to move. that is, until you start going up the neck, then the angle coming of the frets starts to drastically reduce to almost zero.

[Offshore Angler]

Nah, Wilco, you're still not getting it. On a a large relief setup, the frets from about the 12th and up are pretty much parallel to the top of the body. The neck angle will then increase as you move towards the headstock. Geometry dictates that on the flat part of the neck the angle on the fretted string will INCREASE as you move towards the heel.

Take the picture in your post that shows the bowed neck, and put the shim in the front of the pocket, not the heel. Make the shim thick enough to flatten the board at the heel end and all will make sense.

Remember, we're only talking about .010" here.

[Offshore Angler]

To clarify, in post #27, take the bottom figure. Rotate the neck clockwise while keeping the body static.

That should clarify how the guitar's action is a result of neck relief and angle combined.

[Wilko]

It's language. Look at the picture and imagine you are freting a note on the first fret. The string will have lots of room to move. The angle of the string off the fret will be pretty good. Now fret a note arounf the 14th fret. Notice that there will be almost no angle. the string will hit or be too close to the next fret up.

Does that make sense? That's what chokes the notes.

I know you get it. Even you said "combined" that's what I was getting at. Shim alone. no. Shim and neck, saddle adjustment. yes.

[Offshore Angler]

Yeah, we dig each other!

[JAM]

Question to Wilko and OSA:

How high off the bridge plate do you set your saddles? Is there a sweet spot you aim for?

[Wilko]

I aim for the spot where the screws are topped out in the saddles and not sticking out. High as I can get 'em without running out of thread.

You gotta get them strings high enough off the body so you can palm mute and hybrid pick.

[JAM]

I aim for the spot where the screws are topped out in the saddles and not sticking out. High as I can get 'em without running out of thread.

You gotta get them strings high enough off the body so you can palm mute and hybrid pick.

OK, thanks Wilko. I'm going a bit higher then on my Strats.

[Wilko]

Here's my #1:



Here's my stunt guitar:

[JAM]

That helps. You've got a real steep break-over angle.

[buddastrat]

Geez Wilko, those saddles are on their tippy toes! That is very steep angle. Don't you get a tighter tension from that much break angle? I'd think string breaking would be more frequent too. I was reading about SRV's setup and they talked about too much angle and the strings breaking there for him.

My strat's saddles are way lower than that, and I still wanted to get them even lower to get a slinkier feel to my strat. I shimmed the top of the pocket and lowered the saddles and it loosened it up a bit.

No problems muting or hybrid stuff with the saddles lower. I actually like the feel of when the screws protrude a bit on the vintage saddles, the hand sits in there nice and tight.

[refriedwhiskey]

How does a higher action improve palm muting?

[Wilko]

same way taller frets make for easier fretting and bending.

You ever play a Les Paul? Once you have, you'll get it.

[boobtube21]

OSA, you just blew my mind. I was never a believer in shimming until I read this thread.

Just in case anyone else is having trouble understanding what is being discussed here, and also just because I want to, here are some drawings derived from Wilko's that represent my interpretation of OSA's "shimming+relief" theory...

Here is no shim, no relief, the way both my strats are currently set up:


Below is no shim, lots of relief. Notice you're running into a problem at the heel of the neck here. If you try to fret a note in the middle of that neck, you're done for:


Here is a shim at the headstock end of the neck pocket (red dot), notice the change of string angle:


Here is relief plus the shim, notice the problem at the heel is gone. No more fret-out at the higher frets:


Obviously these dwg's are way exagerrated, the set up in the last pic is unplayable, but a super mild version of it will work. I might try this, see if it lively's up the sound on either of my strats. Thanks Wilko and OSA.

[Wilko]

It's been my experience that a straight neck gets a tighter, snappier feel and punchier sound.
I also prefer that strings do their best to pull the bridge down against the body to transfer vibration to the body better.
YMMV.

[Offshore Angler]

boobtube, do this:

take the top figure, but put relief in the neck, and RAISE the saddle height so the neck heel and body are still parallel and you got it. You did the neck thing right, but by not raising the saddles you ended up with the body angled.

Everybody is making a false assumption in their drawings and this is where the confusion arises. The neck is constrained from moving at the heel. It is attached to the body. When people are drawing relief, they are bowing the neck at both ends, which can't happen.

The way it will look is that the neck will be attached as in the top figure and the relief will cause the angle to progessively change from 0deg relative to the body and increase in a clockwise manner as you move to the headstock. This raises the nut relative to the body, and the bridge needs to raise the same amount.

Now with the action set, if the bridge had a lazy break angle and the screws sticking out of the saddles (ouch!), we would shim the neck to raise the saddles.



Does that make sense?

Now, remember that these adjustments are in increments of .001" and it should become obvious that relief and neck angle sets the action and saddle height. Relief gives a better angle over the frets on the heel and on the frets near the headstock at the same time. i.e., it is a Strat's best friend.

A flat neck, as Wilco says, can be very nice to play, but it will have more string slap near the headstock. That, in fact, is exactly how I set up my Tele's to make them a bit more snarly and twangy. But Strats I like to be a bit cleaner sounding. It's all personal preference - but as you can see,there is no one perfect setup for a guitar. You need to set it to the player's preferences.

If you take a guitar to a tech for a setup, and he doesn't want you to play for him and doesn't ask you a few specific questions - take your axe away from him and find another.

[Jack Gilvey]

Geez Wilko, those saddles are on their tippy toes! That is very steep angle. Don't you get a tighter tension from that much break angle...
My strat's saddles are way lower than that, and I still wanted to get them even lower to get a slinkier feel to my strat. I shimmed the top of the pocket and lowered the saddles and it loosened it up a bit.

That's exactly what I did and why, looser feel. I had my saddles at the top of their screws and didn't like it. All about personal feel, the lower saddles don't hinder my muting/picking.

[refriedwhiskey]

You ever play a Les Paul? Once you have, you'll get it.

I owned and played an LP Custom for about ten years. I still don't get it. The saddles on my Strat are as low as I can get them without fret buzz, and I have no trouble with palm muting.

[Wilko]

It's not trouble, it's just easier with the bridge higher.

[boobtube21]

I can palm mute easily enough on my strats but it is definitely easier on my Gibsons. I'm looking into this shimming thing.

[Wilko]

I set guitars up for me, not anyone esle.

werd.

[refriedwhiskey]

That's a great idea. I'd been setting my guitar up for this dude who lives across the street.

[Wilko]

and he probably doesn't even play.

[refriedwhiskey]

Probably not. From what I can see, all he does is mow his lawn.

[Wilko]

Now, if you can just get him to mow YOUR lawn.

[D'Mule]

My advice for setting up:

Neck shimming does not dictate neck action nor does it solve fretting out. For any given "neck relief" + "action" relationship, neck shimming simply changes the height of the bridge.

My advice is for people to first find their magic "neck relief" + "action" combination that they enjoy playing (this is personal preference). Then play with the shim to determine where you want your bridge to end up in relation to the body.

[Offshore Angler]

My advice for setting up:

Neck shimming does not dictate neck action nor does it solve fretting out. For any given "neck relief" + "action" relationship, neck shimming simply changes the height of the bridge.

Arrrgghhhh! Neck shimming plus relief absolutely changes the action. It changes it from a linear change from the nut to the heel to a belly curve which is fat at the 5th and constant to the heel.

Why is this so hard for people to understand? It's simple geometry.

[D'Mule]

Sorry man, but shimming can't change the shape of the strings over the neck one bit.

Perhaps you use shimming to adjust the action while keeping the bridge constant? That can work.

[Offshore Angler]

REREAD MY POST! I said that shimming AND relief change the action.

It's the difference between a straight neck and a curved one. They will have distinctly different actions and sounds.

This thread has given me an epiphany: Many people

A) have poor reading comprehension
B) flunked geometry
and
C) Love to give "expert" advice about crap they have no idea what they're talking about.

[Offshore Angler]

And adding relief is EXACTLY how you solve fretting out on the frets near the heel, assuming of course, that everything is level.

[buddastrat]

And adding relief is EXACTLY how you solve fretting out on the frets near the heel, assuming of course, that everything is level.

Offshore, I add relief if I get too much fret buzz on the first several frets not the frets near the heel.

[Wilko]

OSA,
You are still a bit off on this issue.

As pointed out in my illustrations and other posts. Shimming only changes the place where the strings hit the saddle point (with the "action" set where you want it. It doesn't change the relationship of the strings to the fretboard.

Just because you may need to shim after changing relief doesn't mean that the string relate to the fretboard any different. It's very simple physical relationships that doesn't change.

For detailed explanations google about neck resets on acoustic guitars.

[Offshore Angler]

Wilco, you are absolutely right, But as I keep saying, and apparently nobidy bothers to assimilate, is that by shimming AND changing relief you can very much alter the action of the guitar. I understand I am a card-carrying rocket scientist an have a greater grip of vector caclulus than the average man on the street, but this stuff is really grade school simple. You just need to let go of your wrong preconceptions.

[refriedwhiskey]

Generally speaking, when you find that one person isn't getting you, it might be his fault. But if several people are repeatedly not getting you, the fault is probably your own.

[boobtube21]

Yeah...I actually kind of realized yesterday that what you acheive in pic #4 of my last post is less than desirable. Who wants perfect action at the top frets and buzzing next to the nut???

[boobtube21]

And yeah, adding relief causes fret-out at the higher frets. That's proven in the real world by my adjusting out the fret buzz on my guitar by tightening the truss rod.

I agree that shimming does change the action, but I'm again failing to see where it can do something that the bridge can't. I thought I saw a difference a few days ago, but now I'm not so sure. I'll look at it some more...

[buddastrat]

I have found that adding relief will take the buzz out of lower frets because notes can clear the middle area of the fretboard better. If you add a lot of relief, it can make notes buzz/fret out in the middle of the neck because of the dip in the neck. I have not found adding relief to do that in the higher frets. I have found the truss to have little influence in the higher frets actually.

[refriedwhiskey]

Yeah, I wouldn't think too much relief would affect notes fretted high on the neck. But it could cause notes fretted at the middle of the neck to fret out against the higher frets.

[boobtube21]

I don't know why it does, but on both my strats, I got fret-out big time when bending a note at or above the 12th fret.

I tightened the shit out of the truss rod, now it doesn't do it anymore.

Could be that my neck pocket is a little off, causing the neck-to-body angle to be slightly off.