Learning Guitar - Change in music tastes

[General Specific]

I always worshiped guitar. Loved guitar Rawk. Picked up the guitar in my 30s and practiced until I could play the things I love. I would listen to music I want to play and when I got a new CD, I would rush home to see if I can learn it.

I played the hell out of the last Pearl Jam album. North Mississippi Allstars, Shake Hands with Shorty, and old heros like Blackmore, Gallagher, Gilmour and Iommi got heavy rotation.

I still do this, and get a lot out of challenging myself with a new CD.

Recently, I picked up a CD by Clutch. Clutch is a heavy, delta blues rock, riff-heavy rock band. If I had this CD at the age of 30, I would have told you that this is exactly what I want to play.

I took it home, played along with the songs I liked. Had fun. Put it on again a few days later and...yawn. It is riffy, heavy, and I don't know, too easy? I was uninspired.

I find myself wanting to play music that's more intricate. Difficult. perhaps I like the challenge. I want to play cleaner. I want more Jazz. (Like Jim Campilongo)


Anyone else go through this? This maturing of tastes when you learn how it's done?

On a similar note, have any heros that are untouchable? Like the music you grew up on always seems more impressive and difficult than any new player?

I am still in awe over the things I listened to before I played.

[cooltone]

Very interesting post. I was thinking about this the other night. I think that my experience has been a bit opposite of yours.

I was thinking that now is the only time in my guitar playing history where I can actually play really well the kind of music that I want to hear or that I enjoy listening to now. That is more of a result of my tastes in music becoming as simple as my guitar skills, LOL.

In my early days, the Van Halen, Randy Rhoads staccato neo-classical sweep picking, tapping, dive bombs, etc were what I aspired to achieve, but was never quite able to. I always felt as though I was 'faking' it.

The blues and folk roots that I started with, prior to the heavy rock period, have grown and matured and I have found a lot of enjoyment playing along to the likes of Steve Earle, John Hiatt, Ryan Adams, Neil Young, Allman bros. etc.

There's always going to be guys that floor me and are beyond my reach (Sonny Landreth, Derek Trucks, Jerry Douglas, Vince Gill, etc.)
I just don't know if I have it in me to be studious enough to play like them.

[dirtdog]

yes, interesting post.

I've always aspired to play like Keith Richards. Some 28 years into the journey and I'm still workin' on it!

After I figure out Keef comes Setzer!

One thing I learned is that most of the Zeppelin stuff sounds a lot more difficult than it actually is....

DD

[General Specific]

In my early days, the Van Halen, Randy Rhoads staccato neo-classical sweep picking, tapping, dive bombs, etc were what I aspired to achieve, but was never quite able to. I always felt as though I was 'faking' it.

Apart from a lot of business travel, those guys kept me from trying guitar in the 80's. No, Ed Van Halen did not physically restrain me from playing. The players I knew, and all the guys in the stores were incredible pricks. I used to lurk guitar stores, and they would dismiss me as a non player and wouldn't even try to sell me something.

I moved to CA and it was on one of those lurks when I met a shredder/salesman. We got to talking about music and he asked me what I played. I didn't. He said with my interest in music, I should. (We became friends, so I know it wasn't just a sales pitch.) One day he even tried to teach me how to play like Yngwie...LOL.

I thought it ironic. The mid-80s jersey shredders were so full of themselves that they wouldn't even sell me a guitar. An early 90s shredder in CA not only sold a boatload of crap to me, he became a friend.

[General Specific]

yes, interesting post.

I've always aspired to play like Keith Richards. Some 28 years into the journey and I'm still workin' on it!

After I figure out Keef comes Setzer!

One thing I learned is that most of the Zeppelin stuff sounds a lot more difficult than it actually is....

DD

I say jump right to Setzer and the Keef will come along.

[clayville]

I say jump right to Setzer and the Keef will come along.

One is devolution and the other is evolution.

Devolution, stripping things to their essence so that only the things that move you are left is where it's at. The rest is just... ornament.

So sayeth the guy who knows his own limitations.

I'm 35 years into my own journey to Keef.

[General Specific]

One is devolution and the other is evolution.

Devolution, stripping things to their essence so that only the things that move you are left is where it's at. The rest is just... ornament.

So sayeth the guy who knows his own limitations.

I'm 35 years into my own journey to Keef.

I had an old friend who spent his guitar career obsessed with Keef. The problem is, if you study Keef, you get a distilled version without the influences that made Richards , Keef Richards. (talking Guitar influences, thank you)

For my friend, this approach did him no favors. I suggested that he learn more theory, you know, the theory that Keef might have learned. What is he playing, how does he tune, why five strings? Learn some chord theory and some scale structure and how to connect them. Nah! He didn't want to, and he got stuck.

I have heros and influences too, but my approach is to try to learn the workings of their style and the parts I like would become MY style. You can learn to play Highway Star, or you can learn the theory behind Highway Star and play your own version. I prefer the latter.

BTW, I am not in a cover band, so no one cares if my version is different

[KyKaH]

My heroes were Scofield, Holdsworth, McLaughlin, Henderson. But more I learned how to play more I liked Angus Young, Blackmore, ZZTop, Gary Moore, Jeff Beck, Setzer. Funny. I don't even listen to that fusion stuff anymore(actually the funny thing is that I alsmot stopped to listen any kind of music). Also I found that a lot of pop music is fun to play.

[clayville]

I guess I've always been more attracted to the rootsier side of what rock/blues can do -- more attracted to folks who do more with less than to folks who do (sometimes) much less with more.

I had a teacher once who told me "You can play music... but you don't know music." He was absolutely right.

I'm not claiming that "ignorance is bliss", and if I had it to do over again I'd learn more theory. But Keef is much more than a "riff savant" to me.

Back on topic... I went through a big "acoustic phase" for a few years when I got my first really good one, stumbled in to gobs of alternate tunings and big-voiced drones, trying to get my right hand working right for fingerstyle. A kick in the pants is a good thing now and then.

[dirtdog]

I had an old friend who spent his guitar career obsessed with Keef. The problem is, if you study Keef, you get a distilled version without the influences that made Richards , Keef Richards. (talking Guitar influences, thank you)

By working towards Keef, for me it's not so much what notes he chooses to play but the way he plays them. For the record, it only took me a year or two as a teenager listening to the Stones and Zeppelin and the like to figure out that guys like Willie Dixon, BB, Albert, Freddie, Muddy and so on were behind all that they were doing. I was a ripe old 16 year old by that time.

My strength is playing rhythm...I can muck about in lead territory, but learning theory and the relationship to lead playing has always been such drudgery to me. Yah, I play scales and I've grasped the CAGED system and have been exposed to modes, but that just doesn't move me as a musician. Probably a function of my bad experiences with piano and bagpipe lessons as a kid. I wouldn't say I've got some innate talent there...

Rhythm...that's another story...that probably a function of playing years and years of acoustic guitar, drums and bass.

So, with Keef and with Setzer, it's thier rhythmic styles that compel me...thier respective choices of tunings, chords, slash chords, double stops, arpeggios and what they do with thier right hands is something that I really dig and am working on building into my modest well of talent.

This compulsion has been in me for going on 28 years so I'm not sure how this relates back to the original post. I'm just a

DD

[Cygnus X1]

I have been all over the map...but it was people like Thorogood that taught me to go back to the roots. And that's where I found my own playing. That's the Crossroads. I still have Library of Congress type recordings on reel to reel of folks like Big Bill Broonzy, Lightning Hopkins, T-Bone Walker...all electric second or third generation bluesmen. Along with some very old original Django, Robert Johnson 78's transcribed to tape.
I spent a good year playing that stuff, then worked my way back into Stones, Zep, Cream, John Mayall, blues rock and onwards.
I ended up here, trying to refine all of this into shredding. I have been dedicated to it...my goal I think is like Uli Jon Roth...speed and soul. The speed doesn't have to be there, just the ability to use it has improved my confidence.

I would love to get back into trying jazz, it has just been a different path for me. I can fake some Walter Becker...but I will save that for another time. I love the clean hooks of a lot of pop songs also...helps keep it real.

[Doc W]

yes, interesting post.

I've always aspired to play like Keith Richards. Some 28 years into the journey and I'm still workin' on it!

DD

I hate to be the turd in the punchbowl, and I mean no disrespect to anyone, but ....Keith Richards? He is a terrific songwriter but he ain't much of a guitar player. IMHO, he is to guitar what Bob Dylan is to harmonica. Geez, he plays in open tuning with 5 strings! Note that there is an actual guitar player in the band so that KR can wander about the stage doing what he does best, i.e., attempting to look like teenager with an attitude problem.

And please, let's not get into "he is rich and you ain't." That route will uncover an amazing heap of no talent rockers who made tons of dough. KR is a very talented songwriter and showman. One could argue that he and Jagger virtually invented modern rock music and the modern rock band. But let's not confuse that with actual skill on guitar.

As usual, just my opinion.

[57HANK]

Something I have worked on a lot is learning a tune beginning to end. No skipping to the hook! I know it may seem simple. You would be surprised how many guitarist don't know ONE whole song! Especially the shreaders. Doing this will make you a better guitarist. It will impress people at parties, auditions, music stores, GIGS, etc

[clayville]

I hate to be the turd in the punchbowl, and I mean no disrespect to anyone, but ....Keith Richards?

I don't want to get into a Keef pissing match either... but... imho, though he's no Segovia of the fretboard, he's got this way now -- in late career -- of breaking down even his own classic minimalist guitar playing to it's distilled essence... a sort of Zen approach to rock, and it accentuates the power of the core riff driving the tune. I find that to be a valuable lesson, and one that makes me admire his example as a guitarist even more.

"Better" isn't quite the right word I'm looking for here, but I think he's a more effective guitarist than many give him credit for, and there's a lesson there too.

Sorry... no matter what I say sounds like an argument and I don't mean it to sound that way.

[dirtdog]

I don't want to get into a Keef pissing match either... but... imho, though he's no Segovia of the fretboard, he's got this way now -- in late career -- of breaking down even his own classic minimalist guitar playing to it's distilled essence... a sort of Zen approach to rock, and it accentuates the power of the core riff driving the tune. I find that to be a valuable lesson, and one that makes me admire his example as a guitarist even more.

"Better" isn't quite the right word I'm looking for here, but I think he's a more effective guitarist than many give him credit for, and there's a lesson there too.

Sorry... no matter what I say sounds like an argument and I don't mean it to sound that way.

Well, ya like what ya like, eh? Segovia is a master but there's nothing there that grabs me. Likewise with anything from the shred genre. Technically brilliant, but to me...no soul.

My thinking is on Keef is that, yeah, there's not a whole lot of technical brilliance in his playing compared to the broad spectrum of abilities out there, but there's massive gobs of soul that serve the tunes he wrote. That's what I've picked up on 3 decades of listening to him. It's things like the syncopated riff (using just two chords and a hammer-on for the most part) in Dance Little Sister that is genius (maybe... idiot savant?). Damn, anyone can play that, right? Seems like it should be simple, but it's more complex than it first seems and takes a bit of effort to get that particular Keefiness. Now, if I could cop just an ounce of that soul.

IMO, YMMV, what have you....

[Offshore Angler]

Keef's brillaince is that he allows himself to play like Keef, not somebody else. I've come to the conclusion that true musical maturity is to have mastered the required level of technical competence to allow yourself to play what it is that you feel in your soul and hear in your head. If the world likes it - great. If they don't that's great too, as long as it brings you joy.

My efforts these days are to not only cover songs, but to "Chuckify" them. To make them my own. To put my personal signature on them.

I'm not Skunk Baxter, I'm not Jimi, I'm not John Jorgenson, I'm Chuck, and I'm very happy being me. And for the first time in many years, I'm really enjoying playing. Sure. I'll cop some Gillmore, Cropper, or Paisley, but I dish it out my way at the time of my choosing. We all stand on the shoulders of giants.

[Doc W]

I think what most have you have said in defense of KR makes perfect sense. He does what he does with what he has and this in itself is a measure of talent. Also, his guitar technique is very much a part of his song writing style which is nothing short of foundational for modern rock music. Fair enough.

My point is not that he is incompetent, but that when one is talking about guitar players, he would be among the last to come to mind. KR himself has said any number of times that he isn't much of a guitar player and that he accepts that.

You guys are huge fans - again, fair enough - but that doesn't lend itself to an objective view with regard to his playing. If it were ANYONE else, you would likely call him a one trick pony. My son-in-law is a huge fan of Leonard Cohen, but I doubt he would argue that Cohen is up there with the great vocalists of our time (note: a few years ago, Cohen won the "vocalist of the year" at the Canadian Juno awards. Go figure)..

[General Specific]

Keef's brillaince is that he allows himself to play like Keef, not somebody else. I've come to the conclusion that true musical maturity is to have mastered the required level of technical competence to allow yourself to play what it is that you feel in your soul and hear in your head.

Many times the brilliance of songwriting is to have the balls to play something simple.

I can write simple songs all day, but I don't have the guts to trot them out.

[Doc W]

Many times the brilliance of songwriting is to have the balls to play something simple.

I can write simple songs all day, but I don't have the guts to trot them out.

General, I must be missing something. Why does it take guts to play a simple song? Most of the most popular songs we all know are quite simple when you get right down to it.

[redb]

I realize its been a month but I think I may be able to add some perspective (ie a child's perspective, seeing as its a good 6 months before I can go into a bar here in the states) to this conversation. See I was born right at the point when musical complexity on guitar (at least in popular/rock music, jazz is a whole different story) seemed to reach its peak and there were hundreds of really talented people out there setting the guitar neck on fire and thats always been something of interest to me.

Since I grew up in the decades that brought us nirvana (as the best) and milly vanilly (the worst) Im not really married to any particular style of playing and I am obviously growing at a pretty fast rate relative to you guys who have been around all this time and caught it as it goes around. For me, every time I find something new its a revelation and at least initially it heavily influences what songs I sit down and learn. And trust me, with the internet, I have exposure to a lot of stuff that the average person just simply ignored when it was new.

You know, I really like shred sometimes, I love buckethead with his quirky style and the symphonic metal guys who have some of the most rediculous sweeps youll ever hear, and I do have a special place for the van halens and roads' and lees but I also like the early rock and blues players like brian may and his guitar army or mr peter green who has the best dynamics Ive ever heard. Because I have the benifit of retrospect, I tend to just like whatever was good, regardless of style.

Not to be mean in any way, but I think a lot of older people tend to miss stuff because its not in their mold. Im not innocent either, I wouldnt watch dr house because I normally despise network tv but now I watch it every week because its a good show. For a long time I wouldnt listen to any rap or hip hop because of its "negative message" but now I am at least willing to listen to everything once (and outkast is just plain awesome).

Its great to have changing musical taste, as long as you are changing to being more open minded and broad and it makes YOU happy.

To me, there is only one person who's guitar playing has really, really stuck with me forever, regardless of what period I was going through, and thats Hendrix. And the one thing that has remained for me as a player is that Im not going to be particularly lively when I play, I tend to forgoe the theatrics since I feel the music through my hands and not my whole body, which is partly why I envy hendrix, who is the only person who I actually believe did.

I remember seeing an old black and white interview with eric where the guy asked him what he liked and clapton said something along the lines of "I like the floyd, but I dont think I will in the future" because eric knew that taste changes as surely as the seasons. (side note: eric was a MAN for admitting that, and surely a role model for me; I hope I can be 1/2 as mature musically as he was at my age).

[NeoFauve]

My musical tastes have been outpacing my playing for years.
It stopped bothering me probably 15 years ago.
The thing for me is, I love music.

What I like about Keith, and I'm not one to defend him, is that his playing style and his songwriting dovetailed to become one.
He plays songs. He uses the guitar to create and play songs, rather than the other way around. He's been retreading his formula for some time, but at his peak it was a unique symbiosis.

[redb]

What I like about Keith, and I'm not one to defend him, is that his playing style and his songwriting dovetailed to become one.
He plays songs. He uses the guitar to create and play songs, rather than the other way around. He's been retreading his formula for some time, but at his peak it was a unique symbiosis.

Maybe I just dont get it but I totally cant see why guitar players like richards, or the stones in general. In fact, I cant understand why anyone likes the stones (except for their very early r&b covers, which are always cool). But Ronnie Wood can play, and everytime I see him with one of his zemaitis guitars I have to change my pants.

[clayville]

Man... I sure didn't mean to turn into Keith's champion (in this thread, at least) but listen to the opening riff on, say, Monkey Man or All Down the Line or Tumbling Dice a few times... how rhythmically complex and full of groove they really are, how memorable they are no matter how simple they sound... that's an admirable lesson to assimilate for any guitarist, in any genre.

[dirtdog]

Man... I sure didn't mean to turn into Keith's champion (in this thread, at least) but listen to the opening riff on, say, Monkey Man or All Down the Line or Tumbling Dice a few times... how rhythmically complex and full of groove they really are, how memorable they are no matter how simple they sound... that's an admirable lesson to assimilate for any guitarist, in any genre.

+1000 on that clay!

DD

[General Specific]

General, I must be missing something. Why does it take guts to play a simple song? Most of the most popular songs we all know are quite simple when you get right down to it.

I can strum G - C - D. If I ran into your room screaming, "Look at the song I wrote!", you would smirk and say, "Get in line, you didn't invent G - C - D".

It takes guts to take a simple, simple, song structure and make it work. If it fails, it's just another G C D song.

[Rickenjangle]

After I figure out Keef comes Setzer!

Yeah, good luck with that! LOL! The two are among my favorite guitarists but both couldn't be more different. Setzer is, in addition to being a seriously-ripping rockabilly cat, one of the most knowledgeable non-jazz guitar players in terms of chord theory and orchestration. Plus his diminished runs are astounding.

[Rickenjangle]

Maybe I just dont get it but I totally cant see why guitar players like richards, or the stones in general. In fact, I cant understand why anyone likes the stones (except for their very early r&b covers, which are always cool). But Ronnie Wood can play, and everytime I see him with one of his zemaitis guitars I have to change my pants.

Nope, you just don't get it. But that's OK. To each his/her own. I just don't 'get' Slipknot/Cradle of Filth/etc., etc., but some enjoy that.

But there is so much GROOVE and swagger and attitude to Keef's playing, and so much fractured beauty to his tone. And - the self-proclaimed "fine art of weaving" that Keef does with Woody is a musical language all its own and took years and years to develop.

Actually, not sure who said it, but someone made a disparaging remark about the 5 string open tuning. Well, Keef didn't really invent open-G - but in the context of the Stones, he took it and made it his own. And it's really NOT easier to play in that tuning - it just facilitates certain chord voicings.

[clayville]

And it's really NOT easier to play in that tuning

But it's pretty close to the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

[redb]

But there is so much GROOVE and swagger and attitude to Keef's playing

that may be why I dont get it. I like guitar players who are just chilling out on stage and doing their thing. you know it got kind of rediculous with some of those guys in the 80s who were as bright as the sun on stage and thats cool in its own way, but to me Im more interested in the music than the person playing it.

[juniorspecial]

It would be great to hear Keith play guitar sober.

I don't think he's done that in about 30 years.

[bonefish]

a friend of mine just recently turned me on to clutch...ex-stripper, used to dance to it (i'da spent a fuckton o' ones on that!). struck me as a little dated, but then, i think jack white and the black keys are the real new blues pioneers, so my view is a little skewed ;)

[General Specific]

a friend of mine just recently turned me on to clutch...ex-stripper, used to dance to it (i'da spent a fuckton o' ones on that!). struck me as a little dated, but then, i think jack white and the black keys are the real new blues pioneers, so my view is a little skewed ;)

Well, Retro Blues-Rock Pioneers. They look back for their inspiration just like out original Rawk heroes. I like that a hellava lot better than the countless Nickelback clones or the AIC clones before them.

I like both White Stripes and the Black Keys. Meg White is underated.

I gave Clutch another shot. I have been playing along with the CD lately. It's easy and fun for me, like jamming to AC/DC. I like the riff-laden blues rock and Clutch's lead guitarist does not impress me, so I can play over his lines without being distracted.

[Blue Light]

Doc, I thought Keef's gifts as a rhythm guitarist were self-evident.
Guys like Keef, John Lennon, Bob Weir, they drove their bands.
There's a lot to be said for that.

Not to mention his skill as the Human Riff Machine.