The dual rectifiers have a lot to do with the transient response of the 5E8A---it doesn't sag up like the other 35 watters (Pro, Super, Bandmaster). You can sub in a single or dual 5V4 for more sag. It also has a 47 pF treble bleed cap on the treble control; no other tweed amp had this. I have seen pix of Speedy West with an early 5E8A and maybe it was designed for steel...best they could do back then.
[QUOTE=Doc W;499977]While we are on the subject of speakers, I have a plan to make my silverface Super a little quieter and a lot more portable. I was thinking of taking the amp out of the current cabinet, putting it into a head, and building a 2x10 cabinet (or perhaps just putting two speakers in the current Super cabinet). QUOTE]
Doc - I did that with my 66 Super. The Bandmaster Reverb head box is a perfect fit and you can find them easily on Ebay for less than $100 (lots of people make Vibroverbs out of those BMR). Makes the amp much easier to tote, and also easier to experiment with speakers.
With a Jensen C-12Q your standard 5e3 will be mighty loud past its 12w rating - it is actually difficult to run quiet, 3 and LOUD+ is all I get!
The circuit can also be boomy in confined quarters and some users change the first 2 coupling caps down from 0.1 to 0.022µF (or .033 or .047 options even) to smooth this out. But with the standard 12AY7 an said speaker and .1µF caps, and good PUPS on the guitar - IT IS LOUD AND PROUD!
This thread's a mile long already - but I've built a 5E3 and a 5E3P (of sorts) - both from absolute scratch having the transformers wound virtually by hand - 5Y3 in the 5E3, 5AR4 in the 3P... you'd have to concede that they're different amps... despite having a lot in common. The 5E3 does what it says on the label - and used with a little clean boost - like Chris has probably suggested a thousand times - is a sound that's unmistakeable and distinctive - and you won't get it with any other amp on the planet. The 3P - is a departure from it's sister - in that you have to change the circuit to accomodate low power 6L6's or proper 5881's... I've used 6n3c's - they work very well - but in accomodating them you have to put a bigger rectifier in and then adjust the cathode resistors and cap values (to taste - but you'll have a fart machine if you don't change some of 'em) - this - IMO - changes the tonal response of the amp - your results may vary - and I'm sure with a bit of tweaking you could get it a bit more 5E3ish again but it's best described as somewhere in between a tweed and a blackface - I like it, it still sounds like a Fender and it kicks the snot outta any 2 x EL84/6BQ5 amp I've ever heard - and built right they are both very quiet - coupling that with no neg feedback (max dynamics) means sig/noise is like flicking a switch... either is all you need tote around too... the other key is loudspeaker efficiency - we use custom 25W alnicos that we have made on alloy chassis - we can get them with either British or American style cones - I play with idiots most of the time so my 5F6A clone o' sorts and a pedal come in handy but I'd prefer to just use either of these babies any day...
If I could find a road to get away it wouldn't be too soon....... Shipwreck Moon.......
Just to pound the dead horse a lil mo - i went thru all of them and if only could have one it would be the 5F4 2x5881 5U4 set-up, either in 2x10 form w/ medium loud speakers in there, not super efficient ones. That would put out about 25 watts I imagine, right in the sweet spot... :-)
The tonal magic in a 5e3 is the interactive volume controls. Crank the unused channel, turn the channel you are using up to about 4 and you get wonderful, slightly hairy cleans and a little less volume. For more grit and volume, turn down the unused channel. These things are magic.
hey, DocOriginally Posted by Doc W
know the difference between a rectal and an oral thermometer?
taste!
do I look like I know what I'm doing?
there is a Traynor version of a deluxe reverb that sounds might good as well (don't remember the model - band mate?) looks like a small appliance and has quite a bit of gain
do I look like I know what I'm doing?
Bass mate or bass master? - was a head, one version was 2x6V6 the other 2xEL84...
I've got a 12 and a 25 watt 5E3, the 25 watt is very loud, with 6L6's and a GZ34 recto it's stands up to a drummer without a problem.
I did the Paul-C and tone mods to it and although no longer sounding just like a louder 5E3, it does sound great.
Man I Love my tweeds!
Sophisticated and raunchy at the same time. I love that in a ... ehem, amp. ;-)
- HR
Go Roy!
I play the tweed Deluxe with people who hit, but tastefully. A drummer who plays his kit as an instrument instead of blatantly bashing away. It's more than loud enough for people who have ears, and know how to use them.
ygm3? early 70's?
I wish I could remember. it had some killer overdrive when the volume knob was turned up.. it was a buddy's and I only got to use it for about 2 songs.
If I see one cheap, I would grab it though
do I look like I know what I'm doing?
Just listened to your clip on YouTube - that sounded great. I also have a 5E3 kit and a Tele and am thinking on getting a Bad Bob. Are you happy with the combination?The tonal magic in a 5e3 is the interactive volume controls. Crank the unused channel, turn the channel you are using up to about 4 and you get wonderful, slightly hairy cleans and a little less volume. For more grit and volume, turn down the unused channel. These things are magic.
Thanks! Yep, it's winner.
Well, I don't play drums, so I will leave the bullshit up to guys. I have played bar gigs for 45 years. The amp I played was not loud enough. For you basement jockeys, it might be.Go Roy!
I play the tweed Deluxe with people who hit, but tastefully. A drummer who plays his kit as an instrument instead of blatantly bashing away. It's more than loud enough for people who have ears, and know how to use them.
"The beauty and profundity of God is more real than any mere calculation."
Well, that's uncalled for and downright condescending. FWIW, and not that I have to explain myself to you or anyone else, but I'm a professional musician, not a "basement jockey". I make my living through film, TV, live gigs, and records. I've got gold records on my wall. For the majority of the gigs that I do, the 5e3 is plenty of amp, especially when the FOH guy gets it right.
With an attitude like that, I can see why you've played bar gigs for 45 years.
Wait...what size is the bar?
I ought not jump in.
If the 5E3 isn't quite loud enough for the venue, then a mic to the PA or a line out will serve just fine.
I saw Thorogood play Orchard Park stadium with what looked like a Deluxe Reverb sitting up on a folding chair. In person. He had all he needed.
I have 2 different 5e3's. Different folks put them together. One I run 12ax7 the other 12ay7. It is a loud amp, that in most cases would have at least enough headroom (for country clean or clean blues and the like) with a typical mid-sized setting around here. If the room needs more the PA needs to step in or you blow away the folks in front it seems to me. Those patrons tend to get unhappy. Then the owner gets unhappy, which means less positive comments from the person with the coin. Loud drummers are not well liked either and are often plexi glassed if they do not develop a sense of touch. Few settings here tend to be concerts, and most are more entertainment to accompany other social activities (ie, bar, dance etc). So if people can't be social over the noise it is not something that tends to work.
A 5e3 is not a stand alone stadium filling amp. It will do it with a mic, and many a touring band has done it. It has always seemed easier to me to get a quiet amp covering sound with a PA, than to get a loud amp in a reasonable volume zone and be "playable" while allowing for fun to be had by all. But every context is different.
Last edited by Dale; 01-02-2009 at 01:56 PM.
Guitars: Teles, Strats, LP, VW Wormoth, others. Amps: Bassman LTD, Richter 5e3, 5e3 Head, Taynor Bassmaster II, Gretsch 6150 (Supro), others. Board: Guitar>Java Boost> Huckleberry>Fuzz Head>Top Fuel> SFX-03 >Keeley 4 knob Comp>EH Clone Chorus>Flanger>DD-6
CJ, I wasn't first off the mark with the condescension and I can tell you I was quite annoyed by it. If you or anyone else wants to play a gig with a tweed Deluxe, you are of course quite entitled to do so. You can use any amp you like. It is a pluralist democracy.Well, that's uncalled for and downright condescending. FWIW, and not that I have to explain myself to you or anyone else, but I'm a professional musician, not a "basement jockey". I make my living through film, TV, live gigs, and records. I've got gold records on my wall. For the majority of the gigs that I do, the 5e3 is plenty of amp, especially when the FOH guy gets it right.
With an attitude like that, I can see why you've played bar gigs for 45 years.
I liked the sound of the amp and I may try a first build project with 5E3. However, it simply wasn't loud enough for some of the venues I CHOOSE to play and no amount of smart-ass replies or wishful thinking from people in this forum is gonna make it any louder.
Go ahead and love your 5E3's but don't project your love affairs onto the needs and tastes of others, especially in annoying ways. It isn't the only amp in the world.
"The beauty and profundity of God is more real than any mere calculation."
Just for the record, having built and tweaked a several 5E3s... CJ's with it's uber efficient Red Fang (I had one like that) will sound literally TWICE as loud as the stock Fender 5E3 with it's Jensen RI P12Q. The 'Fang' is the most efficient speaker I know of - rated at 103db @ 1M, whereas the Jensen is one of the lowest, rated 95db. This explains most of the gross disparity in your respective 'hearing' (opinions) of these amps.
Well, I guess have to apologize and retract. The tweed Deluxe that I played in that shop suddenly became louder than it really is, simply by force of argument. I guess now Fender will be discontinuing all other amps of higher wattage since the 5E3 is obviously loud enough for anyone with any taste at all and obviously the only amp in the world that anyone could possibly want. I hope that Clapton won't be disappointed when Fender informs him that he has been mistaken all along and that it is really the tweed Deluxe that he needs.
"The beauty and profundity of God is more real than any mere calculation."
???
It certainly makes a difference. I guess as I play mine with a C Rex or Swamp Thang that may indeed be a part of it. Like the Fang these are pretty efficient clean speakers.
Guitars: Teles, Strats, LP, VW Wormoth, others. Amps: Bassman LTD, Richter 5e3, 5e3 Head, Taynor Bassmaster II, Gretsch 6150 (Supro), others. Board: Guitar>Java Boost> Huckleberry>Fuzz Head>Top Fuel> SFX-03 >Keeley 4 knob Comp>EH Clone Chorus>Flanger>DD-6
Hum ... seems a bit of stretch here. BTW, what Clapton would play for a "small" gig, is a bit larger than many. I have also not seen him play a dance in a while.
Guitars: Teles, Strats, LP, VW Wormoth, others. Amps: Bassman LTD, Richter 5e3, 5e3 Head, Taynor Bassmaster II, Gretsch 6150 (Supro), others. Board: Guitar>Java Boost> Huckleberry>Fuzz Head>Top Fuel> SFX-03 >Keeley 4 knob Comp>EH Clone Chorus>Flanger>DD-6
http://www.colomar.com/Shavano/spl.html
education time
16w with a 103 Db spl speaker = 115Db
128w with a 95Db spl speaker = 116Db
these are just volume numbers, no relation to sound quality.
big watts and inefficient speakers make a heavy package to carry / haul around that really are NOT any 'louder'
and logic does not apply to marketing, what was that monster amp fender was selling last year, like 500w ?
do I look like I know what I'm doing?
I have told this story before. I built three 5E3s, each a little different. Two had bigger iron and a more efficient speaker than the stock Fender version. None were loud enough for me to gig with due to my obnoxious noisy style. Built another one and put a 'Fang' in it. Took it to a big outdoor party hosted by a musician who invited me to play. I was finally invited to play on an elevated stage where the closest members of a large audience were 75 feet away across a pool. Drum kit was miced, bass had a big-ass rig, two other guitarists - one through an old 2x12 Musicman, the other a leather pants EVH wanna be with a Marshall stack - none of use pickers miced. End of the mini-set I threw down on 'Red House.' Three (I assume) guitar-player-critics, LOL, circled the pool and approached the stage after song was over. All gravitated to me. First two said "you were great, blah-blah." Third one said "yeah nice playing, but... you were WAY, WAY too loud. Couldn't hear the other two guys at all." Nuff said.
Doc...whatever. I'd really have to care to continue, and I don't.
Gris is right on about my amp. It is twice as loud as most 5e3's, simply because of the very efficient speaker I run in it. It would bury a stock one like Doc tried.
And for the record I have a few amps in addition to the 5e3. Black Face Super Reverb, Black Face Vibrolux Reverb, and a 5e3/5e5 Hybrid 4x10. All have gotten some playing time in the last couple of months.
The Red Fang is a very loud speaker with a 5E3. It's also got a nice tonal balance with the circuit. It brings out the highs, so you get maximum twiddleage with the volume and tone knobs.
Several guitars in different colors
Things to make them fuzzy
Things to make them louder
orange picks
+1, Chris!
It's one of the reasons I prefer JBL speakers over less-efficient brands. The D-130F in my "Spankmaster Reverb" conversion makes that amp nearly as loud as any number of 40-watt or even 50-watt platforms. Plus it's the tone I grew up with so I know how to wring the most out of these drivers.
OTOH, there are a number of "classic" yet less-efficient speakers that also sound great......you jus' need a few more available watts to push 'em into sonic nirvana. Fanes, Rolas, Vintage Greenbacks an' the like sound killer through a Hiwatt (advise the 100W top though).
"When injustice becomes law then rebellion becomes duty."
CJ, one is led to wonder, given your previous arguments, why the other amps are even necessary.
But as you say, whatever.
"The beauty and profundity of God is more real than any mere calculation."
Cuz' I like 'em. But the amp that get the most stage time is the 5e3.
Here's to whatever.
Different sounds/tones. Your proposition Doc was that a 5E3 is not loud enough to gig with. The rebuttal was not all 5E3s are created equal. No one said a 5E3 is the ONLY amp to gig with. FWIW, I don't think the 5E3 is a especially great rhythm amp. It's too middy. Does a great singing lead tone though... :-)
All this makes me wonder what my 5F2A idea w/Red Fang 10" would do to the windows in my house.
Seriously...I have a Tweed Pro stuffed in a Hot Rod Deluxe chassis and iron, and I'm running an Eminence Red White & Blues in it. That's a 101dB efficiency in an already loud amp platform.
I will say that its 40W through 101dB is close to SF Twins (100W) with stock speakers. I say this because I got used to my Hot Rod Tweed Pro and then worked on a couple of late '70s SF Twin Reverbs and thought I had a volume issue in the Twins as a result.
The speaker really does affect the amp dramatically. I love the Eminence line right out of the box.
"...pray do not imagine that those who make the noise are the only inhabitants of the field;
that, of course, they are many in number; or that, after all, they are other than the little,
shriveled, meagre, hopping, though loud and troublesome, insects of the hour."
-Edmund Burke
I jus' wish they'd make the Commonwealth 15 available in an 8Ω configuration......I'd love to stuff one into a blonde Showman box to go wif my (dare I say it?) Spankmaster Reverb.
"When injustice becomes law then rebellion becomes duty."
Look over this thread carefully. My proposition - and it was more a simple observation than a proposition - was that the tweed Deluxe reissue which I played in the store was not loud enough for some of the work that I do. The proposition of others here was ... well, all kinds of stuff including some pretty standard condescension, dick waving and what I was thought was some pretty unnecessary nastiness. I thought forums such as this were for sharing information and not bullshit one-upmanship. I guess I stand corrected on that.
"The beauty and profundity of God is more real than any mere calculation."
That's very true. One guy even called everyone who disagreed with him "you basement jockeys."
Pot, kettle. Kettle, pot.
"I haven't slept for ten days...because that would be too long." -- Mitch Hedberg
Twew dat, Eli.
An' correct me if'n I'm wrong but this site is The Fender Forum, not "The Fender Forum Exclusively For Those Who March Lock-Step To One Specific Orthodoxy". We got all kinds here......basement jockeys, bedroom commandos, Mastercard Maestros, hobbyists, enthusiasts, working pros, even a bonafide rawk star or two. All with opinions that, at the least, each rate a modicum of respect. I know I've wagged my weenie a few times here but I generally try to offer something useful when contributing to a thread. 'Cause the guy I piss off someday may be the fellow who might answer some question I need solved.
"Do unto others"......(the golden rule)
Jus' mah pinion, y'unnerstan'......
"When injustice becomes law then rebellion becomes duty."
basement jockey?
that would be me
do I look like I know what I'm doing?
Yeah, and then because ONE person PO'd you, you started flaming everyone - including me. As always, everything I posted was informational (and, I believe, accurate) not hyperbolic. Guess it serves me right for trying to be helpful.
Gris, this thread degenerated into a dick match that was not of my making. It is ridiculous for me even to have to say I stand by what I said, which was simply this: I tried an amp in a shop and found that it was not loud enough. Big deal.
An informative response might have led to an interesting discussion of particular speakers. Unfortunately, although headed that way, it didn't make it and became really irritating. The only claim that I made was that, after playing in bars on and off for 45 years, the amp didn't suit my needs. I got back a bunch of crap about "taste," the credentials of others, and other stuff.
Finally, I didn't flame everyone. I just flamed and those who were being flamed know who they are. If you took it personally, then I apologize to you and anyone else who got caught in the crossfire, but not to those at whom my comments were directed.
"The beauty and profundity of God is more real than any mere calculation."
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