Quartal harmony?

[Cogs]

Can someone explain this to me? I saw this feller playing So What & he was all over the place, & this in a song that only has two chords (or one, depending how you look at it). I can't seem to figure this stuff out, & I can't find any place on the 'net that can explain it in such a way that it makes sense to me.
thx-

[wingnut1]

Isn't this why music theoreticians hang out in small rooms at music stores waiting to impart wisdom to us less knowledgeable for a small remuneration?

[ric480]

Thank you google.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartal...uintal_harmony

[melody]

Try the whole step half step scale.

[pc]

Try the whole step half step scale.

No, wrong direction. The fifth interval in that scale would really clash with the idea of quartal harmony.

Quartal harmony is simply a harmonic structure based on intervals of fourths rather than thirds like we're used to.

I.e, this chord:
C - F - Bb - Eb

You can see that it winds up sounding like a Cm11 chord, which is why a number of minor scales will work well over it.

Although it arguably has its roots in things like Gregorian Chant, it was used most in the Neo-Classical stuff in the early to mid 1900s. It's never really found its way into "pop music," and only in a few instances in jazz, most notably "So What."

John Coltrane used a lot of quartal movement in his soloing, particularly in the later years of his playing (c.f., A Love Supreme), but he was specifically doing that sort of movement over chords that were still the more traditional 3rd-based sound. You can really hear the extremely open, ambiguous mood it creates.

Quartal harmony is like that--"minor" in flavor but lacking that "sad" quality we're used to in that first minor-3rd interval. Again, it sounds open and mysterious, but lacking the tritones we commonly associate with tension in our typical western music.

[melody]

No, wrong direction. The fifth interval in that scale would really clash with the idea of quartal harmony.

Quartal harmony is simply a harmonic structure based on intervals of fourths rather than thirds like we're used to.

Got ya thanks for the detailed explanation...

[Cogs]

Quartal harmony is simply a harmonic structure based on intervals of fourths rather than thirds like we're used to.

I.e, this chord:
C - F - Bb - Eb

So where do the Bb & Eb come from? It's not based on the standard W-W-H-W-W-W-H scale? For instance, the C major scale-
C - D - E - F - G - A - B - C
would produce:
C - F - B - E
wouldn't it?

[pc]

So where do the Bb & Eb come from? It's not based on the standard W-W-H-W-W-W-H scale? For instance, the C major scale-
C - D - E - F - G - A - B - C
would produce:
C - F - B - E
wouldn't it?

Nope, all the primary harmonies are "a perfect fourth" away from each other.

C to F is the same distance as F to Bb, not B. You're correct that the chords are therefore not based on the standard major scale. It's a different way of dividing up the full twelve-note scale.

[Cogs]

Now I'm really lost
I thought maybe it was just harmonizing the major scale in fourths as opposed to thirds.

[pc]

Think of it the opposite way. The major scale is a scale we created to work with triadic harmony. There aren't 7 possible notes in our common system of intervals (i.e., a piano), there are 12.

Western music eventually developed by using harmonies found by breaking up those 12 notes into thirds. Stack a minor 3rd on top of a major 3rd and you have a major chord (C - E - G). Stack a major third on top of a minor third and you have a minor chord (C - Eb - G)

Our ears gravitated to that system (arguably) because of the possibilities of mixing and matching those triadic chords within a song. There's a flow, especially if you stack another third on top of the first two sets, you add that 7th and certain chords just seem to flow into other chords. G - B - D - F just begs to resolve into C - E - G.

In order to write melodies (and later improvise solo-melodies) we created 7-note scales that divided up the 12 possible notes into groups that made sonic sense when played over those triadic chords.

But in a sense, triadic harmony is just an "opinion." It's only one way of dividing up those 12 tones. Quartal harmony is a different "opinion" in that sense. To actually write pieces that make full use of quartal harmony, composers (such as Bartok, Sibelius and Schoenberg) were definitely stepping outside the norm and their pieces reflected it. All of our ideas about listening for the interplay of minor and major chords are put on hold when listening to some of that stuff.

Now... that's not to say that there isn't crossover. 12 notes is more than 7, but it's still only 12. In traditional Classical, Jazz and all kinds of Pop and Rock music we frequently hear the "7sus4" chord. Play this chord:

E 6
B 5
G 5
D 5
A x
E x

I.e., G - C - E - Bb. It's an inversion of C7. Now just raise the E to an F...

E 6
B 6
G 5
D 5
A x
E x

I.e., G - C - F - Bb. It's a C7sus4, and it's also quartal harmony.

Jazz composers, trying to chart new territory when they felt swing or bop was getting old, were always looking for new things to try. I think most Jazz scholars you'd ask will tell you that "the So What chord" was Miles really using Quartal Harmony. Same with Herbie Hancock's "Maiden Voyage" (which is probably even a better example). But really, if thought of in triadic terms, they were just filling whole songs with 7sus4 chords to keep that ambiguous, not-quite-minor, not-quite-major feeling going throughout the tune.

Quartal Harmony is cool sounding and an interesting topic in music history, but not something you need to know in order to further your jazz improv skills. Like I said, improvisers like Coltrane did a lot of scalar interval playing in their soloing using 4ths and 5ths and that created a hell of a unique sound to the solos using it--listen to the opening cadenza of Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" for a great example--but these were guys who had already stepped well "outside" the norm and were looking for the next place to go.

Sorry... long, but hopefully more illuminating.

[Offshore Angler]

Wow, pc,thanks -that was a great. Don;t get me started on Coltrane! I will add that being a former horn player that quartal, stacked and other harmonies seem to make more sense when you aren't soloing with a polyphonic instrument. When it's all single note lines things like bebop and quartal work for me. If I try it on keys or guitar it all blows up in my face unless I keep things VERY simple. Quartal has this musical Dadaism thing around it that needs to be respected, IMHO.

[Cogs]

THAT will need some digestion, to be sure, but things are getting clearer. Thanks for the info, Pete!

[pc]

Glad to help!

[pauln]

Here is a quartal harmony guitar player that walks through some of how it works, and plays it nice so you can get a sense of what it means on the guitar...

Steve H

[Cogs]

I checked out that very clip earlier, trying to get more info about these chords. Steve Herberman is a pretty incredible player but he doesn't really explain what's going on in that lesson. I think he would in the downloadable version.
Coincidenally, the guy playing So What showed up on that channel, although the specific vid I saw was not listed. That one is HERE
I backed up a bit & found another lesson from David Cohen in which he spells out what chords he's playing but I'm still not sure where they are coming from. No matter; I'll learn them first & then figger them out at a later date.

[melody]

Like I said, improvisers like Coltrane did a lot of scalar interval playing in their soloing using 4ths and 5ths and that created a hell of a unique sound to the solos using it--listen to the opening cadenza of Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" for a great example--but these were guys who had already stepped well "outside" the norm and were looking for the next place to go.

Sorry... long, but hopefully more illuminating.

Thats why I was thinking the whole step half step approach would work over that piece. But now I see why it will not. Thanks again

[mgade]

Too cool. Not every day you come across a brand new used concept.

[Offshore Angler]

But to be a real man you play quartal in five, LOL. Brubeck approved.

[mgade]

What's that? Every 20th note on the 12-note cromatic scale? Octaves to the rescue!

0-4-8-12-16-20
0-5-10-15-20

(Just kidding)

[pauln]

Here is a nice quartal lesson that shows the harmonization of the scale using the quartal chords, then using that same set of chords over six modal progressions... very easy to see and hear what is happening, quite a leap forward in my understanding of HOW to find where quartal fits into the scheme of things.

Quartal Intro

I spent some time the other night looking closely at how I play "Sleepwalk" - immediately discovered quartal chords all over the place. I was able to change a few more chords to quartal, now that I know where they should fit, nice results there...

[ES350]

See Oliver Messiaen, etc...

[refin]

Fingers........soul........feel.........mind...... .
cook until done,serves.........how many?