Clash of the Tight Ones

[ch willie]

My band lost it's lead guitarist a few months ago, and we took on a player who is speedy and who can play just about anything we throw at him. He's 23, and in over 35 years of making music, I have only ever played in a band with one guitarist this good.

But we are having a clash of ideas. He's into Satriana and Vai. And I think these guys are phenomenal. BUT I'd rather listen to Keef playing five strings. Our guitarist dismisses players like Keef (lacks proficiency), Jimmy Page (too sloppy), Eric Johnson (one trick pony), Joe Bonamassa (stole everything from Eric Johnson), Jeff Beck (never reached the level of Satriani and Govin).

It's partly a generational thing, partly a different way of thinking about music. He's into high proficiency and military precision. I'm into the song and what makes it work, which sometimes means "sloppy" guitar.

BUT, our band sounds so much better with this guitarist along for the ride. We're tight, and we're doing some kick ass tunes. Our other lead player was rhythmically challenged, and I don't miss that, even though he and I played well together and had some rapport.

Sometimes there is tension between me and the new guitarist over approach. Hes young, and I'm trying to tell him that not every guitarist wants to be Steve Vai. Some of us want to be Ron Wood.

[Old Ranger]

23 huh? Shucks, I got boots older than that. That pup is still too full of himself to care what you think. I know the type all too well. Got loads of technical chops but zero style or soul. But you're not gonna change his mind nor his attitude. He's locked into himself right now and won't hear you. It will likely take several more years for him to be on this planet to mature, if he ever does. Good luck with your "child prodigy".

[S. Cane]

I have more or less the same situation in my band, the difference being that we're both in our 30s.

He's a very good player, much better than myself, but his taste for music is quite opposite to mine.

Most of the times it's ok, because I'm the rythm guitarist, he plays lead.

But truth is, he always wants to shred, even in classic songs, and simply doesn't understand that sometimes one of the guitars needs to be muted or play smooth.

He keeps willing to be heard all through the song, no matter how many times I tell him that pauses are part of music...

As for me, I am one of the guys who like Page's "sloppy" style, Keith's 5 strings, and yes, I want to be Ronnie Wood!

[Rickenjangle]

As for me, I am one of the guys who like Page's "sloppy" style, Keith's 5 strings, and yes, I want to be Ronnie Wood!

Me too...

And in the O.P., if that guitarist doesn't 'get' what Jeff Beck brings to the table because his note-per-minute count is lower than <insert shredmeister here> then he's probably always going to be a source of tension in the band...

Given a choice between an incredibly proficient musician who consistently overplays and/or plays too loud (and in my case I'm thinking of a keys player in a band that I guest with - where I get to play the "Ronnie Wood" part) and a lesser technician that plays as part of an ensemble, gets along with everyone, and shares a general musical vision of the group, I'd take the lesser technician any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

FWIW my guest band is firing that keys player because he's an a-hole. And doesn't ever help with load-in or load-out (he claims to be disabled but seems to get around fine). And overplays loudly. But dayumm that boy can play! It's just not worth it.

[phantomman]

23 huh? Shucks, I got boots older than that. That pup is still too full of himself to care what you think. I know the type all too well. Got loads of technical chops but zero style or soul. But you're not gonna change his mind nor his attitude. He's locked into himself right now and won't hear you. It will likely take several more years for him to be on this planet to mature, if he ever does. Good luck with your "child prodigy".

+1

I'll bet money that he knows he's not a good fit with your squad and the material you play, and that he's likely looking to move on to "bigger" and "better" things. You might start making continency plans......

[Rickenjangle]

You might start making continency plans......

You mean like wearing Depends onstage?

[FrankJohnson]

I am a sucker for space, and feel to the music.

One of the coolest things I ever heard came from a guy playing at the Jam when Bromberg used to make it regularly, and I was the house bass guy. I had two guitarists on my side of the stage, and one was ripping a shredding bluster of notes through a lead - head back, eyes closed, playing Madison Square in his mind...........

As he finished, the other guitartist looks over at him and says "he man - let it breathe.......Let it Breathe" this guy was 15 at the time.

Its not ALL generational - but a lot of it is, and learned. if there is a way to salvage go for it. In my band we ALWAYS have two guitarists. One currently is a very very Eric Clapton like guitar, the other very Allmans/Santana. Distinctly different and we use that to our advantage. it makes EVERY song sound unique no matter how similar.

I hope that this is able to be smoothed out - this kind of drama can run rampant quickly

[ch willie]

I am making contingent plans. Our band started off with an amazing love and respect for each other. The bassist and drummer are more in line with the new guitarist as far as tastes go. And now practices are tense at times. We're a pretty good band, but I'd play with lesser players if the love and passion are there.

The best time I ever had was with a band was nowhere nearly as accomplished as my current band. I lived in Germany, and the band's members were Greek, German, English, and Welsh, and me the Murkan. But we had energy and fun, and that came across to the audience so that we became a popular band.

I had that with this band until the new guitarist. He's a good guy, but overbearing and over confident to the point of arrogance. I don't think I'll stay with this band very long if things don't change for the better.

I admire the guy's playing. He is incredible and even has a sense of melody. But he's into metronome precision, and that's just not what I like or admire in a guitarist.

[melody]

Nothing wrong with wanting to play with precision but if it just kinda sits in the mix with no feel or expression for the song I get board. Playing the same shit for the same song night after night is not what the pro's do I have to remind people all the time of this.

But one does have to take into consideration that with different styles in a band compromise is a priority. If you can make that work you and the others will have a blast if not then I would consider other projects...

[S. Cane]

I think it depends highly on what you want to do.

If you have a 90s heavy metal band, it's totally OK to shred.

If you want to play Satriani, Vai, and so on, you are supposed to do it right, it involves precision and sloppiness won't get you anywhere.

But you CAN'T shred on a Stones/Zep gig. Period. Besides it1s sacrilege.

[S. Cane]

BTW I don't mean to flood, but I'd like to state that these three English gentlemen, James Patrick Page, Keith Richards and Ronald David Wood, the three of them have been the most important part of my own identity as a musician.

I don't trade what I feel when I listen to their guitar licks for any "Perfect Awesome Mr. Ability Shredder". Hell no.

[ch willie]

de Melo, we think a lot alike.

I will say that shredding has its place, and when it's good, it's excellent.

I am a product of my age, though, born in the early 60s, grew up on the music of that time and the 70s. So my tastes are based on the things I like about that era. When it comes to "shredders," Steve Howe is my king because he shreds, and is precise, but above all, he plays melodies that touch me both intellectually and emotionally. Or Zappa whose musicianship is almost unparalled and whose intellectual approach and satirical lyrics and melodies appeal to me.

I think one of my problems with some of the current music is that THERE IS NO SONG.

And yet, I am from an era that saw the song and the album as an artform, and often as a dialogue. And my conception of what a song should be is based on is itself based on the kinds of songs I grew up on.

[S. Cane]

Well, your phrase said it all:

"There is no song"

You're the man.

[Doc W]

You mean like wearing Depends onstage?

Loud guffaw.

[Old Ranger]

I'm of the opinion that it may be best to walk, and let the guys follow their new "guitar hero". Then go find some more like minded folks that act their age. Of course now this is coming from a guy that's one day older than that feller that played that SG in the Doors back in the day. And Mr. K could create some choice melodies too as I recall and didn't have to play a bazillion notes at hyper speed to make his point. Yup, I'd take a hike and let the other guys go nuts with the kid and find me some folks with some maturity.....

[ch willie]

We have a spate of gigs through April that we're committed to. I'll play those and see where we are.

We're about to lose our bass player. For however long I'm with them, I may slide over to bass. I'm dying to put my Ric and Jazz Bass to good use.

I've never played in an originals band. Always covers. So when I do break, if things don't improve, I'll probably start a band to perform my songs--I have a sizeable amount ready to roll (and rock).

[smitty_p]

Few things annoy me more than full-of-themselves twenty-somethings who are dismissive of those who've gone before, regardless of the topic...music, technology, whatever.

Have you considered conferring with the other members of the band to get on the same page, and then having a little reality check with Scooter?

I do not have an issue with shredding, when called-for. But, if he insists on shredding when it is not appropriate, he is not a musician...he is a machinist. He has learned how to operate his tools, but has not learned how to make music. Having a sense of the song is paramount. This is one reason I admire David Gilmour so much. Listening to how he composed leads reveals that he understands how to participate in the song.

To be fair, I like to be precise, too. So, I understand where he's coming from. But, a gig is an event. Positive interaction between the band members is what draws people in. This is why I can't stand to watch any live videos of Guns N Roses. Even in their hey-day, they were like little islands on stage. Watching Slash stand like he is straddling two tectonic plates all by himself, just irritates me.

What about your usual audience? If they are nearer to your age, they may have grown up and roll their eyes at the shred-fest, too.

[phantomman]

Few things annoy me more than full-of-themselves twenty-somethings who are dismissive of those who've gone before, regardless of the topic...music, technology, whatever.

Have you considered conferring with the other members of the band to get on the same page, and then having a little reality check with Scooter?

I do not have an issue with shredding, when called-for. But, if he insists on shredding when it is not appropriate, he is not a musician...he is a machinist. He has learned how to operate his tools, but has not learned how to make music. Having a sense of the song is paramount. This is one reason I admire David Gilmour so much. Listening to how he composed leads reveals that he understands how to participate in the song.

To be fair, I like to be precise, too. So, I understand where he's coming from. But, a gig is an event. Positive interaction between the band members is what draws people in. This is why I can't stand to watch any live videos of Guns N Roses. Even in their hey-day, they were like little islands on stage. Watching Slash stand like he is straddling two tectonic plates all by himself, just irritates me.

What about your usual audience? If they are nearer to your age, they may have grown up and roll their eyes at the shred-fest, too.

+1

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[ch willie]

Thanks, guys.

Our audience is young. I'm 52 and just can't find musicians my own age to play with. Everybody's either in a life long band, or they packed it in a long time ago. And I'm a bit of a sore thumb in this town. I don't do small country town very well, city slicker that I am.

The other guys in the band are good dudes. They're enamored of the new guy. And that's okay. I'm not a diva about anything and like to work together. This guy is just so good. Admittedly, I feel thrown aside, but I'm okay with that. I don't have to be the star. But the guy talks all the time, and I can barely get a word in about anything. The dude just steps all over me while I'm trying to get my ideas out, but I don't take his shit.

I hate it that I've made this a big whine fest. It's pretty obvious to me that I'd rather not spend my latter years trying to drown out a know it all. Age hasn't really entered into it until now, but I can see that they're young dudes and have more in common with each other than I do with them. I'm an old college English professor with a mortgage and two grown children. Their lives are still an adventure of the unknown, relatively free of adult responsibility. Grown men, but still children and unaware of what life will throw at them.

I think I know what I have to do.

[smitty_p]

Ch willie,

Well, that does change things. I had the thought that the rest of you were older and the new guy was the younger.

I'll bet you could find some others to play with. Some of those who have packed it in would probably jump at the chance to play again, if given the opportunity.

[ch willie]

I hope so, Smitty. I may just go solo acoustic for a while if nothing else.

[blackonblack]

Me too...

And in the O.P., if that guitarist doesn't 'get' what Jeff Beck brings to the table because his note-per-minute count is lower than <insert shredmeister here> ...

+1
Beck plays musical notes most guitarists don't even know exist. While I can't listen to him for hours on end, I will say he is the one guitarist who is so good that it makes me think about giving up guitar.

[FrankJohnson]

Everybody's either in a life long band, or they packed it in a long time ago. And I'm a bit of a sore thumb in this town. I don't do small country town very well, city slicker that I am.

Funny - taking this out of context - I encountered ALMOST the same when I started playing here locally. I was "new" and "they" were two groups - all seasoned and known, or not welcome. I had to go to a jam an hour up the road, meet a new circle of people, in order to be welcomed as an unknown or new guy.

I'm still new, still don't have a damned clue what I'm doing, but somehow, have become a little better accepted by some Locally.

That said - like-minded people seem to find each other. you just have to know where to look - THAT is the hard part!

'Tis a journey my friend!

[Old Ranger]

Ya think you can whip the kid in a fair fight? Or would you have to resort to a cheap shot when he ain't lookin'? He needs a good smack upside the head!!

But seriously, you're NOT going to get through to the kid. He won't listen as he keeps running his mouth at mach 3. And now that the rest of the band has rallied around this child, you're never gonna be able to take any sort of control of the situation either. They'll turn on you like rabid dogs in a pack.

Time to cut your losses and move on to another age group or find other musicians that are willing to work with you and your original sets you want to build. If you stay where you are now, you're gonna end up very unhappy and in a poor state of mind musically to the point that you'll loose the drive to play with any sort of personal dignity. Close your guitar case and walk away.

[Offshore Angler]

I'm always amazed that people often immediately put "precision" into the "lack of soul" category. Precision is soul.

Don't believe it? Go turn up some Tower of Power. A bass player told me just yesterday about TOP, " It sounds like the drummer dropped his kit down the stairs and the band is dead nuts on every bounce!"

"Soul" lives on the 2, the 4 and the "ands". Miss them, even by a tiny bit, and it's elevator music.

Hey, the kid is 23. Chances are great you'll be on a different branch of the musical tree. Don't knock the kid for being who he is. Maybe you just hired the wrong guitarist.

Was this an audition for the job deal or did you just take the first guitar player that came along?

My suggestion... strive for compromise. Tell him you'll let him do some Satch but he'll have to do some 70's rock. Use it as a chance to expand your musical horizon as much as his.

The band I'm in now does Seven Mary 3, not my cup of tea, but I do my best and then lay into Soulshine when it comes up. Plus I get to learn new tricks and styles which keeps it fun.

IMHO, people take this playing in bands stuff WAY too seriously. It's supposed to be a fun hobby you share with friends and if you're lucky you clear a few bucks.

The best reward I've gotten from being a player is to just relax, go with the flow and (I've learned as I've aged) treasure the time spent making music with your bandmates, they may not be here someday.

YMMV and all IMHO of course.

[ch willie]

Thanks to all. I like precision, but I don't like it to sound like a metronome unless I have a song that totally calls for that kind.

Trust me , I've been trying to get compromise. I'm a gentle but firm guy, no chip on my wotsit. I work well with people. This kid isn't into it. The others wanted him in. I said no, but they insisted he'd be all right. Oh yeah.

Yeah, I think I've decided to get through these gigs. For the first time in over a year with the band, I don't look forward to practices even though we're a very good and tight band.

[ch willie]

Update:

Just when I was ready to throw in the towel, young turk and I started playing together, really playing together. We had the greatest practice the other night, and we all worked together like we used to, and good stuff came out of it. The whole atmosphere was changed, very collegial, and his ego deflated to a degree that he was human.

If things continue to go like this, then I might reconsider leaving. If this is a one off, I'm ready to jump.

I had a good attitude the other night and pumped myself up for practice. So that made a difference too.

Point is, we all worked together and totally owned "No More Tears." It was the most exciting practice we've had in so long that I can't remember.

[ch willie]

You're right, Kenny. I've kept very quiet about it all. I tend to observe things long before I act. That has worked against me, but it's also worked for me more times than not.

[FrankJohnson]

well - the difference between a Band and the boy scouts is.....
Boy Scouts have adult supervision!

[ch willie]

Update: Young Turk wants to quit after the next gig because covers just dont "make" his "d*** hard." He'll stay on if we do originals, and the others will follow him. I'm fine with that, but there's no way I'm going to write songs with this guy, and I can already see that he wants to turn it into his show. I wish him the best. If he learns to think a little less of himself, he might be in a successful band one day. He's good enough to make his own records in the vein of Vai and Satriani.

So after next weekend's gig, I think that's it with this band, and I'll be free to do solo stuff.

[phantomman]

Hmmmm? A guitar player with an ego problem... Imagine that...

Why......

Why......

Why, it's simply shocking!

[lure555]

Without a common vision, this sort of thing is gonna happen in a band. If I had to play with my 23 year-old self I'd throw down my guitar and kick his... my ass.

[ch willie]

Yep, a common vision is key. I have no ill feelings toward the other two. Their tastes are similar to his, and it's better for them if I bow out. When we lost our other guitarist, we lost some of the chemistry. A really friendly atmosphere has now become tense.

Sorry for the whine. Thanks for the advice and support.


p.s. I've known a few guitarists with big egos, but I've also met a bunch who are heavy on the Id.