Whee! I wish I'd done this years ago.

[OldStrummer]

I just finished my second guitar lesson. Yep, even though I've had piano lessons and studied music theory in college, I'm a self-taught guitar player.

I'm sure you've heard the line, "He doesn't know what he doesn't know." That's me.

Not only does my teacher have some fine guitars (today, he had a Guild X-500), but he's an extremely accomplished performance artist as well as a teacher.

At first I thought I'd be bored with the repetition and "simple" exercises, but -- I don't know what I don't know. I'm finding scales helpful, chromatic exercises with alternate picking strengthening and improving my fretting, but he's also pointed out issues with my right hand ("too much tension," "too far back"), and while I've never been comfortable with a pick, he wants me to use one, anyway ("you can keep your fingerwork for those songs that benefit from it").

And that was the first lesson.

Today, we did a very simple blues progression. He had me use new (to me) fingerings for G7, C7 and D7. He then told me that any note in the C major scale could be played over a G7, and note in the F major scale could be played over the C7, and any note in the G major scale could be played over a D7. To prove it, he played the chord progressions and I played lead, just visualizing the notes in the respective scale. Zounds! "I heard some music in there," he smiled at me. "I could tell you were improvising." Wheee!

We ended up with a discussion on the pentatonic scales. These are shapes I've known for years, yet my playing lead with them has sounded stilted and trite. He's given me a new way of looking at playing over chord tones.

And that was the second lesson.

I signed up for eight weeks. And I'm excited about them! I'm beginning to know what I didn't know!

[Doc W]

I love your enthusiasm. Keep us posted on your progress!

[DanTheBluesMan]

He had me use new (to me) fingerings for G7, C7 and D7. He then told me that any note in the C major scale could be played over a G7, and note in the F major scale could be played over the C7, and any note in the G major scale could be played over a D7. To prove it, he played the chord progressions and I played lead, just visualizing the notes in the respective scale. Zounds! "I heard some music in there," he smiled at me. "I could tell you were improvising." Wheee!

We ended up with a discussion on the pentatonic scales. These are shapes I've known for years, yet my playing lead with them has sounded stilted and trite. He's given me a new way of looking at playing over chord tones.

And that was the second lesson.

I signed up for eight weeks. And I'm excited about them! I'm beginning to know what I didn't know!

just out of curiosity, what fingering of the 7th chord did he show you?

[OldStrummer]

just out of curiosity, what fingering of the 7th chord did he show you?

Let's see if I can do this in tab:

G7

e--X
B--3
G--4
D--3
A--X
E--3

C7
e--X
B--1
G--3
A--2
D--X
E--3

[Jeffp]

Very good Old Strummer! I'm basically trying to get moving in this stuff myself. I can do the scales but can't figure out how to use them. Which one? When? Why? What will work? Keep it going!

[Offshore Angler]

I just finished my second guitar lesson. Yep, even though I've had piano lessons and studied music theory in college, I'm a self-taught guitar player.

I'm sure you've heard the line, "He doesn't know what he doesn't know." That's me.

Not only does my teacher have some fine guitars (today, he had a Guild X-500), but he's an extremely accomplished performance artist as well as a teacher.

At first I thought I'd be bored with the repetition and "simple" exercises, but -- I don't know what I don't know. I'm finding scales helpful, chromatic exercises with alternate picking strengthening and improving my fretting, but he's also pointed out issues with my right hand ("too much tension," "too far back"), and while I've never been comfortable with a pick, he wants me to use one, anyway ("you can keep your fingerwork for those songs that benefit from it").

And that was the first lesson.

Today, we did a very simple blues progression. He had me use new (to me) fingerings for G7, C7 and D7. He then told me that any note in the C major scale could be played over a G7, and note in the F major scale could be played over the C7, and any note in the G major scale could be played over a D7. To prove it, he played the chord progressions and I played lead, just visualizing the notes in the respective scale. Zounds! "I heard some music in there," he smiled at me. "I could tell you were improvising." Wheee!

We ended up with a discussion on the pentatonic scales. These are shapes I've known for years, yet my playing lead with them has sounded stilted and trite. He's given me a new way of looking at playing over chord tones.

And that was the second lesson.

I signed up for eight weeks. And I'm excited about them! I'm beginning to know what I didn't know!

Welcome to the mixolydian mode.

Why it works:
The G scale has one sharp, F#
That's the seventh of the scale
A dominant 7th chord has a flatted seventh. (1,3,5,b7)
That makes the F# an F natural,
The C scale has no sharps or flats, so it works perfectly over a G7.


The secret to understanding all of this is right in front of you on the piano keyboard. Why is it that there are no black keys between the E and the F or the B and the C, but there are on all the other notes? Figure that out and the rest becomes easy.

Oh, wait, theory is useless.

Chuck

PS: you may want to look into be-bop scales too.

[Offshore Angler]

My advice is this:

Learn the names and fingerings of the scales, but UNDERSTAND the intervals. That's what really matters.

When chord theory intersects with the scales it will all make easy, perfect sense.

And remember, some scales have more than 7 notes. That's huge.


Chuck

[Offshore Angler]

Yep. You can hear that in his commentary. "I see" notes and scales, and makes his own scale notations. He offhandedly says things like, "I studied the fretboard until it ceased to be" [my words, not his].

I, on the other hand, study the fretboard until it becomes a confusing mishmash of notes. It's my hope that one day it will "snap" into place!

And I say this as one who played guitar for 20 years without having a single lesson before putting it down.

I realize now that I put it down because I'd reached the end of my self-teaching capability. I truly need to take it to the next level, and that's what my lessons are steering me to.

Even Tiger woods has a golf coach.

[S. Cane]

I don't know how I missed this thread! Great posts, Chuck! This is what makes this forum greater than most... There are some great guys who know their music, like you guys

And it's great to actually see music itself being the subject of a thread, not just gear and tone.

OS, take your time and everything will come together just fine. You just have to take the time to understand everything. Don't try to get a hold of modes too fast, or all together at one time.

[OldStrummer]

Sérgio, it probably takes someone like me to turn the topic to music lessons, theory and associated subjects. For something like the past twenty years or so, I denied "needing" guitar lessons. I would think of taking them and then would talk myself out of them. Either I didn't have the time, the money, or the desire. Now, I've gotten older, smarter, and with more time on my hands.

Lessons have been a real eye-opener! I was gratified to hear my teacher tell me yesterday that he'd already seen and heard improvement in me! It's my hope that I may one day go from being a bedroom guitar player to a big bedroom guitar player!

[S. Cane]

Music is fascinating because it can be done in many ways.

You don't have to know a thing about theory or technique to be a rockstar (e.g. Johnny Ramone), but you can just as well be a skilled and technical jazz player who knows PRECISELY what and how to do anything that crossed his mind, through his instrument.

It's one's choice to go all by ears and hands and do what sounds good, or to really study music and go much farther. Music is a mountain you can climb with or without a map (theory) but the map makes a HUGE difference.

Me, I am doing the reverse way. I was trained as a classical guitar player at a University and stopped playing for about 10 years. Then I picked up the electric guitar and found out that reading music and knowing a lot of what I had learned wouldn't help me much because I hadn't developed my hearing and my ability to improvise. I was musically literate but deaf and dumb. I couldn't play what I whistled, to save my life.

So I started backwards, I began playing electric guitar all by ear just to develop my intimacy with the instrument and not remain a robot who could play any partiture just by sitting in front of it and reading.

Now I'm working on both ends and trying to apply theory to what I do with the guitar.

Odd, ain't it?

[OldStrummer]

You're absolutely right, Sérgio! For years I was kind of a hotshot player because I knew songs that were more than the typical I-IV-V variety (e.g., Melissa by Allman Bros., Thinkin' Of You by Loggins & Messina, etc.) and could jam with those who didn't. But somewhere along the line I fell into a rut. The injury to my left elbow combined with stale playing put me off for years.

When I came back to the guitar, like you, I picked up an electric, which I'd never played before. With modeling amps giving me all kinds of throat, I think I could have gone on a bit. But I quickly found I was falling back into the rut. After my first lesson, I realized that my knowledge was severely restricted, and that I wasn't a hotshot but a repetitive, unoriginal mid-level guitarist.

I will probably never do more than get on stage with a worship band. But being able to sit down and play the stuff I hear in my head is the goal I have now set for myself.

[OldStrummer]

Oh, man. Now it's getting real!

Having completed learning four different forms of the G7 (four notes only, using four fingers) my newest homework assignment is to play the Cycle of Fourths using all four forms in four different neck locations, without repeating a single chord.

I've already done one, at the nut end of the neck. My teacher says that I should try to get all four, but even if I get two or even one, I'm doing pretty well. I want to get all four.

He's also given me a new blues lick, and some scale exercises.

You know, if you'd said I was having fun before starting this, I'd have thought you were nuts. But I am having fun. And learning a lot to boot!

[OldStrummer]

My teacher has been alluding to this for weeks. "Oh, if you're playing chord X, you can play the notes in scale Y over it." That sort of thing. He's leading me to that in his own way. I just have to go by his timeline and not mine.

[Offshore Angler]

My teacher has been alluding to this for weeks. "Oh, if you're playing chord X, you can play the notes in scale Y over it." That sort of thing. He's leading me to that in his own way. I just have to go by his timeline and not mine.

Intervals and timing, that's really all there is to guitar playing.

And I read a great tagline a while ago: "With proper thematic development, anything will work over anything." Don't remember who it was, but the quote says it all.

[OldStrummer]

[Offshore Angler]

You realize I AM rocket scientist who minored in music, right?

[Jeffp]

Love that Old Strummer! ha ha👍

[OldStrummer]

I'm not sure how, or why, or even what, but I feel like I crossed some sort of threshold during and after today's lesson. My teacher has been focusing on both scales and chord forms -- forms that only contain four notes, keeping the 5th and 1st strings muted. We started with the 7th, moved to the maj7 and today to the m7. I asked him why we hadn't started on the simple major chords, and he responded by discussing triads. The chords we've been using are "complete" -- four fingers, four notes. Knowing how to shape these chords in any key is how the fingerboard is "unlocked." I'm probably saying this poorly.

Here are four forms of Cm7:

n I IV V X - fret
e: x x x x
B: 1 4 6 11
G: 3 5 6 12
D: 1 5 6 10
A: x x x x
E: 3 6 6 11

Now, if I can memorize the root, 3rd and fifth of any form, I can pretty well create any chord by modifying one of the notes. We've been working with the seventh, so going from dominant seventh to major seventh is just a half step (one fret) move up. To go from the major seventh to a minor seventh, just move the seventh down a half step.

I know you guys know all this. Part of me writing it is to make sure it makes sense to me. Even though I've known this empirically for decades, having it put into a formal structure helps bring this all together for me.

The same is true of scales. He's got me practicing four over six, two over five, four over five, and two over six. Now, I've got to play scales in the cycle of fourths, putting what I've learned together (I'm not even going to talk about alternate picking, elbow vs. wrist picking, and all of the stuff he's been teaching me.

I know it's possible to be a great guitar player without knowing all this. But I've never been a great guitar player, and this is why I kept finding myself in ruts. I'd hit a wall and not know where to go next. I'm beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel!

[thara13]

Very good Old Strummer! I'm basically trying to get moving in this stuff myself. I can do the scales but can't figure out how to use them. Which one? When? Why? What will work? Keep it going!

The best way to learn how to use scales in music is to practice and experiment. Try playing different scales over different songs and see what sounds good to you. I know this is an old discussion but the topic is very important I am
appealing to the admin. Please approve my post, Thanks

[Tele-Bob]

Wow, I love the enthusiasm. You'll be ditching those minor pentatonic scales in no time!

Hopefully soon, you'll be ditching scales completely in favor of "ideas." The best players out there are not using scales. They're making expressions. Big difference.

Good for you man!

[Offshore Angler]

Wow, I love the enthusiasm. You'll be ditching those minor pentatonic scales in no time!

Hopefully soon, you'll be ditching scales completely in favor of "ideas." The best players out there are not using scales. They're making expressions. Big difference.

God for man!

Bob, truer words never spoken. Scales are a learning tool and a framework, but what I teach is to hear it in your head and then play it. Scales, chord shapes, intervals, etc., are all great but I'm pretty sure nobody wants to hear a guitar player playing scales for three sets.

Unfortunately, a lot of guitarists keep looking at the tools looking for a "secret" when the secret is simply that you need to be musical. You make music with your ears, not your hands.

It's an undisciplined player who say's " I don't want to play it exactly like the recording, I want to do my own thing." That's the road to stagnation in record time. Learn from the masters and a whole new world opens up. Then, overlay your ideas onto theirs. But first learn how they do it.

Guys like Green, Clapton, Page, Guy and the rest all learned from those who came before them and then expanded upon it.

Learn to play solid, solid, rhythm locked up with the bass and drums and then the solos become easy.



Chuck

[OldStrummer]

Guys like Green, Clapton, Page, Guy and the rest all learned from those who came before them and then expanded upon it.

Those guys didn't have the Internet as a crutch. I remember reading Clapton broke a string on his first guitar and he couldn't afford to replace it. So, he spent hours spinning records and learning his chops using only five strings.

Which is, I suspect, the way many of us learned to play. I've often said that had the Internet existed when I was first learning, I'd be a guitar god today.

Or maybe not. Because maybe I'd still be looking for the "magic trick."